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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 07:37 AM Thread Starter
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Default More Legion Loyalists?

So, I enjoy messing around with our favourite fluff, looking for new ideas to turn out armies and excuses to use Codecies that I wouldn't normally have the minis for. This question has rattled around in my head for a while and I'm asking now more to see what everyone else's opinion would be.
So, we know that the Legions were scattered widely across the galaxy- sometimes they were in large-ish groups (like over Murder) but sometimes there were the strangest mixtures of odds-and-sods (as in the Astartes in Battle For The Abyss). This suggests, to me, that not all of the traitor Legions' strength would have been concentrated around Istvaan, as there would always be some of them stuck too far away to get there.
If that holds true, then it also suggests that members of a traitor Legion who are far enough away, might not become infected with chaos like their Battle Brothers did. Sound good so far?
So, this, then, further suggests that after the Heresy began, there would still be loyal members (maybe even quite large groups) of the traitor Legions located too far away to get involved. There might even have been miniature civil-wars in these far-flung fleets as those who wanted to turn side with Horus fought those still loyal.
So (getting there!) that would open up the possibility that, after the Scouring is complete and the Legions have split, still-loyal elements of the traitor Legions might be arriving in the Sol system, wondering just what the hell has happened.
So, my question is, what do you think would happen to these still-loyal Astartes? In small numbers I can see them being killed with no qualms. But what if there were a lot of them? Would Garro looking in from the sidelines see good warriors going to waste and try to get them re-assigned? Would they be sent to different Chapters? Would they be allowed to fight together? Part of me says the Imperium would just kill them all. But part of me says, with the right sponsor, they could make a useful tool- almost a penitent crusade, if you will. Thoughts?

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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 08:46 AM
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whilst i would have no issue fighting against such an army and i would be impressed with anyone who put the effort into imagining and modelling such an army, i would still be inclined to say that the premiss is 'highly unlikely' if not 'out of keeping with the 40k background'.

the simple fact is that SM are no longer really human. the processes that they go through to make them into near infinitely lived killing machines, reduces them to a level that we would likely regard as automata. human soldiers are 'rebellious' in a way that the SM simply can't afford to be; they can't complain about not getting enough sleep or food, or constantly being put in danger. that means that they have to be programmed to follow orders without ever questioning them (and be actively positive about doing so). which means that their Primarchs words are law. if their Primarch says 'we're all turning to Chaos' then they do. even if deep down inside they don't really like the idea. and whilst travel and communication are slow across the galaxy, they aren't that slow. even if there were remnants located on the very edge of the galaxy, they'd know what was happening soon enough (and they would almost invariably side with their Primarch).

besides which, whilst i agree that Chaos is often best understood in the language of a disease, its not transmitted purely by contact with another Chaos follower. its perfectly possible for those away from the events taking place in the heart of the Imperium to also turn to Chaos.

nevertheless, like i said, it would be a cool army and i would be happy to play against it, and more than likely i would not ask you to explain it away. i'd just want to play.

so go for it.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by admiraldick View Post
that means that they have to be programmed to follow orders without ever questioning them (and be actively positive about doing so). which means that their Primarchs words are law. if their Primarch says 'we're all turning to Chaos' then they do. even if deep down inside they don't really like the idea. and whilst travel and communication are slow across the galaxy, they aren't that slow. even if there were remnants located on the very edge of the galaxy, they'd know what was happening soon enough (and they would almost invariably side with their Primarch).
Did you not pay any attention to the events of Istvaan III?

Garro, Tarvitz, Demeter, Loken, Torgaddon, Vaddon, Ehrlen, Temeter, Vipus and thousands of other unamed astartes choose not to follow their primarchs to chaos. That's exactly why the events of Istvaan happened, to clean house of those astartes who wouldnt blindly follow their Primarch to chaos, and you can guarantee the other traitor legions not present on Istvaan dealt with the loyalists in their ranks aswell. I'm certain their must have been alot of loyalist marines from the traitor legions who were dispersed across the galaxy when the heresy broke out, and im sure some of them would have stayed loyal aswell. The communications issue is a very relevent, around the time of the heresy communications across the galaxy were very slow and difficult due to the warp being unstable.

Back on point, i don't know what would happen to them, i've often wondered that myself. Sure some of them would probably follow their primarchs, but i can see a could deal of them wanting to stay loyal having not been there for the slow corruptions of the legions. Emperors Children not present on Laern to be corrupted and Death Guard not caught in the warp would be horrified at their legions new appearences and would doubtfully rejoin such a changed legion. I think the Imperium would still kill the majority of them, especially post heresy, that or they would be locked up and interrogated for a long time breaking them in the process, especially post heresy.
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 10:48 AM
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I can imagine there being small Istvaans all over the galaxy. Maybe a few traitors on a loyal ship, overloading the core(what ever powers the ships) or destroying the geller field in the warp.

@admiraldick Space marines are anything but mindless killing machines, that blindly follow orders, if they did then there would of been heresy no Istvaan

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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 03:28 PM
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The key factor in whether a Space Marines turns to Chaos/betrays the Imperium is the duality of his loyalty: each Astartes is loyal to Primrach and to the Emperor. The question each Astartes asks before turning is which loyalty is stronger.

Loyalist SM put their oaths of service to the Emperor first and foremost. Those who dedicate themselves fully to their Legion/Chapter would follow thier Primarch/Chapter Master to hell or worse.

These facts established, yes, I can see many of the still-loyal members of the traitor legions (hesitantly) shrug off the will of their Primarch for the Emperor's sake. They would have been the first to fight local traitor units once the Heresy was in full swing. Most would have been cleansed (as, of course, at Istvaan) by the traitors to root out dissention, while others would survive and likely attempt to prevent the Heresy from growing and warn the Emperor as Garro did.

Those that survived the Heresy would be expunged from Imperial records, whether or not they were killed (for the sake of preventing any further Heresy concerns). Likely, they'd be executed for the sake of simplicity and the price for not stopping their Legions from turning. If they were spared, there are countless Chapters in the current 40k mythos whose gene-seeds do not match any loyal Legion's, or are not actually recorded at all. They may be the "lost successors" to the loyal Astartes of the traitor legions.

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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 03:39 PM
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I believe Warsmith40 is right... as only a warsmith can be.

I believe that the Terrain Legion's astartes still owed much of their alliegence to the Emperor as they had fought and had been with the Emperor before the finding of the their respect primarchs and fathers. Though the new astartes created by the very men that had fought and bled with the primarchs on their respective planets for years owed their primarchs a whole new type of respect and loyalty entirely compared to those Terrain astartes. Their I believe is where the alliegences within the legions lie.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 03:55 PM
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Yet non-terran marines such as Loken, Tarik, Tarvitz, Demeter, Temeter etc all still stayed loyal to the Emperor, where as Kharn a Terran still stayed loyal to Angron
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 04:12 PM
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All this makes me wonder what actually happened to the rest of the Thousand Sons fleet that was dispersed before the Space Wolves arrived. Though, in all likelyhood, they were probably killed due to their dubious background (by that I mean that nearly everyone in the Imperium considered them to be heretical sorcerers) & unstable geneseed. It would also be interesting to know the mindset of those marines because they would have been unaware of the imminent Space Wolves attack and probably still considered themselves loyalists.

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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel of Blood View Post
Yet non-terran marines such as Loken, Tarik, Tarvitz, Demeter, Temeter etc all still stayed loyal to the Emperor, where as Kharn a Terran still stayed loyal to Angron
What I got from De'shea was that Kharn basically became Angron's therapist. Can you imagine having to calm that thing down and explain things to him, you'd turn just like him. I believe that Kharn was very much influenced by Angron as Kharn was probably the closest to him. I would have to reread Galaxy in Flames but I thought that Kharn even though Kharn lost himself in his bloodlust during the Istavan battle that there was a instince were he was sort of struggling with himself. I have to verify first however.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-23-10, 01:47 AM
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I presume Kharn was experimented on using the same device/technique that was used on Angron when he was on his home planet fighting as a gladiator which turned him crazy, Khorne then welcomed him with open arms. I reckon the same could be said for most of that legion.

Back to the topic I'd say after Isstvan the imperium took no chances with those legions that were involved. Imo any stragglers coming back post terra would have been annihilated as quickly as possible with the lucky ones disengaging and throwing their lot in with chaos.
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