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post #61 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 05:43 PM
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I was under the impression that marines crippled beyond physically fighting again were sent to serve in the fleet, I think that was the case in one of the Ultramarine novels with Lord Admiral Lazlo Tiberius, it was a long time ago that I read it however so I could be mistaken.

I'm not sure if its been mentioned yet but something that bothers me a little about Astartes reaching 1000-1500+ years of age is that, their life is war. After so many thousands of battles they are going to end up being more machine than man from the injuries they sustain, once they reach that point there is very little left of them to deteriorate apart from their mind, so would they not suffer the same as dreadnoughts do?
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post #62 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 06:05 PM
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Something which may interested you from Imperial Armour 9 - The Badab War (Note, this is a direct extract, and thus has spoilers. I have forgotten how to do the spoiler tags, but it is nothing serious, anyway.)

Worthy of note to this record is the nature and history of Knight-Commander Stibor Lazaerek, Grand Master of the Fire Hawks during the Badab War. At the outset of the conflict, Lazaerek was more than six centuries old and in failing health thanks to numerous war wounds accumulated in his long career.

This, to me, suggests that overtime the Astartes do begin to fail in health. I imagine that it is particular to each Chapter and their Bloodlines, with Blood Angels seeming to have more longevity than say, an Imperial Fist..

Nyctophobia- Fear of the Dark Angel.

"No one ever spoke about of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"

'Killing a man is like fucking, boy, only instead of giving life you take it. You experience the ecstasy of penetration as your warhead enters the enemy's belly and the shaft follows. You see the whites of his eyes roll inside the sockets of his helmet. You feel his knees give way beneath him and the weight of his faltering flesh draw down the point of your spear. Are you picturing this?'
'Yes, lord.'
'Is your dick hard yet?'
'No, lord.'
''What? You've got your spear in a man's guts and your dog isn't stiff? What are you, a woman?'
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post #63 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 06:41 PM
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I'm sure they would have made more of a point of it if Qruze wasn't actually an astartes. The proto astartes from what i gather are quite different to actual astartes, and without wanting to read the first three books again at the moment i'm certain that Qruze is decribed as an astartes and refrences made to his astartes enhanced physiology. I'm not even sure about him being a marine like the 13th company, it makes sense if he was Cthonian and was highly devoted to Horus like the 13th company were to Russ and willing to take such an enormous risk. But the first batch of space marines would have all been made of suitable candidates, there would be no point in bothering with older humans who would probably not survive, it would jsut be counter productive. Either way they need to sort Qruzes backstory out, he simply can't be a veteran of the start of the crusade and be Cthonian
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post #64 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-03-10, 01:52 AM
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I read somewhere that marines were immortal but not invincible(I believe those were the words used). Meaning they can live forever but they die because of the constant waring.

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post #65 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-03-10, 05:41 AM
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Mohawk,

I would posit that's exactly why warriors like Dante and Grimnar are the exception and not the rule. Most Astartes are not of the same caliber as them, and as a result don't end up living that long. I think that reconciles well with Dark Angel brought up in regards to the Badab War Imperial Armour quote.

Angel of Blood,

It's a tough fit, I agree. Ultimately, my pseudo-theory merely aims to reconcile the various bits of fluff out there.

The easy answer is that Qruze IS an Astartes, he simply is a couple hundred years older than the rest of his fellows being a Unification Wars veteran, and he looks correspondingly older. Thus it follows that Astartes can die of old age, that Blood Angels do have greater longevity thanks to the blood of Sanguinius, and Logan Grimnar is just a freakish anomaly of long life and health.

The only thing we have to do then is ignore the quote about the Imperial scientists in "Horus Rising", who proclaimed the Astartes to be effectively immortal. The thing that bothers me about this is that they couldn't just make a bone-headed mistake like that. It's not like they wouldn't notice that the Astartes cell-death cycle is, say, six-seven times longer than that of a human as opposed to an absence of a cell-death cycle.

I suppose we can assume they would have lied. But why? There's no point to that kind of propaganda being spread. It certainly wouldn't have mattered to the Astartes themselves, who were mentally indoctrinated to begin with. They knew they weren't invincible, and their cavalier attitude toward death was one of scorning the consequences of it, not thinking they couldn't die.

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post #66 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-03-10, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dark angel View Post
Something which may interested you from Imperial Armour 9 - The Badab War (Note, this is a direct extract, and thus has spoilers. I have forgotten how to do the spoiler tags, but it is nothing serious, anyway.)

Worthy of note to this record is the nature and history of Knight-Commander Stibor Lazaerek, Grand Master of the Fire Hawks during the Badab War. At the outset of the conflict, Lazaerek was more than six centuries old and in failing health thanks to numerous war wounds accumulated in his long career.

This, to me, suggests that overtime the Astartes do begin to fail in health. I imagine that it is particular to each Chapter and their Bloodlines, with Blood Angels seeming to have more longevity than say, an Imperial Fist..
For spoiler tags, you just type [SPOILER*] and then [/SPOILER*] without the stars.

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post #67 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 03:42 PM
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Reading through Horus Rising to find some info on Qruze, and he's got to be a Terran. To quote

"a captain in the Legion since its inception, his prominence entirely eclipsed once Horus had been repatriated and given command by the Emperor. He was a product of another era, a throwback to the years of the Unification Wars and the bad old times, stubborn and slightly cantankerous, a vestigial trace of the way the Legion had gone about things in antiquity"

So from this he absoloutely has to be a Terran, being around from the very first day of the Legions inception and then moved out of the spotlight once Horus was found. I still think he is a full astartes however, still can't explain how he got supposedly old though.
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post #68 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
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Reading through Horus Rising to find some info on Qruze, and he's got to be a Terran. To quote

"a captain in the Legion since its inception, his prominence entirely eclipsed once Horus had been repatriated and given command by the Emperor. He was a product of another era, a throwback to the years of the Unification Wars and the bad old times, stubborn and slightly cantankerous, a vestigial trace of the way the Legion had gone about things in antiquity"

So from this he absoloutely has to be a Terran, being around from the very first day of the Legions inception and then moved out of the spotlight once Horus was found. I still think he is a full astartes however, still can't explain how he got supposedly old though.
He was probably from the first ever batch and a captain or something, so from then on he just survived longer than any of his fellow marines and being a captain he wouldn't of been that much in danger compared to a normal marine.
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post #69 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 04:02 PM
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I don't think the imperial scientists knew for sure that astartes were immortal. Like I mentioned earlier, Ahriman says in A Thousand Sonsthat it was assumed that they were immortal but that at that stage (only 200 years into the crusade) it was too early to tell for sure. I mean, a modern astartes can easily live for 200 years providing they don't die in battle.

As for Cruze, maybe he just looked old because he was battle worn. I remember in the one book, can't rememner which one, the one remembrancer remarked that Loken looked like he had aged several years in the space of a few months while taking part in a particularly brutal campaign against another human empire.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

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post #70 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 06:21 AM
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Angel of Blood,

True, but then "False Gods" specifically states he is Cthonian.

Chompy Bits,

When it comes to a normal person making a casual observation, sure, it might not look like someone aged in the few years Ahriman or Garro, etc., spent on Terra. We're talking about scientists, though, who would have made that observation following clinical analysis. If your cells aren't featuring the decay/destruction cycles that indicate aging, then they're not. Aging six, seven, or eight times slower isn't something you're going to miss.

Either way, I had an opportunity to check out the first Index Astartes article again, specifically the ones on the Codex Astartes and the making on Space Marines. It states that "administrative" functions are often undertaken by Marines of "advanced" years. This pretty much correlates with what the Blood Angels Index Astartes article states about them being long-lived.
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