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post #51 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 12:35 PM
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Well, in A Thousand Sons it was stated that astartes are believed to be functionally immortal but that at the time it was still too early to tell, though Ahriman had remarked at one stage that he was absolutely no different than he had been two centuries prior to the events of the book. If you look at that, then I'd take a guess and say that astartes were originally indeed meant to be immortal. I mean, I can't see you not aging at all for 200 years and then suddenly start to. That being said, as others have already mentioned, the knowledge of the implantation process has degraded and is now filled with rituals and similar BS, so maybe because of that marines aren't as long lived as the were originally supposed to be.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

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post #52 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 12:53 PM
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The Luna Wolf called the half heard was very old and was basically dismissed in everything he said but they still left him in a privileged position.
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post #53 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 01:08 PM
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The question is, though, if older (or simply wound-crippled warriors in Phoebus's case) marines just chilled in the fortress-monastery are immortal, why don't we have 3000+ year old marines laying around? Surely the death rate of most marines sitting at home is fairly low, right?

Sure, there are occasional hiccups like with the Crimsonfists, but I imagine those are the slim minority.

Plus, if such warriors were around, would they still take up one of the 1000 slots within a chapter? Would it not be better to step down and allow a fully capable marine take their place? Some of the older Chapters could be riddled with so many semi-functional marines that their battle-worthiness would be compromised.

On a fun note, I was reading one of the old White Dwarfs and at that point of the fluff several Loyalist Primarchs stuck around the Imperium after the Heresy. But after 1400 years they all died due to old age. Funny stuff, eh?
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post #54 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 01:22 PM
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They could build something like the Royal Hospital at Chelsea, and fill it full of old marines from every Chapter, who wander around all day in bright red power armour, attending flower shows and veteran reunions!

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post #55 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 01:53 PM
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The Luna Wolf called the half heard was very old and was basically dismissed in everything he said but they still left him in a privileged position.
That's not the whole story, though.

Rogal Dorn dismisses Iacton Qruze as a "relic". Qruze, though revealed to be a Cthonian in "False Gods", is stated to have been a veteran of the Unification Wars, before Horus was ever found. I posit that, whatever Qruze is (perhaps a proto-Astartes, something between Thunder Warrior and Space Marine), he is not the same as the rest of his Crusade-era comrades.

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Originally Posted by hailene View Post
The question is, though, if older (or simply wound-crippled warriors in Phoebus's case) marines just chilled in the fortress-monastery are immortal, why don't we have 3000+ year old marines laying around? Surely the death rate of most marines sitting at home is fairly low, right?
I think the real issue is that the death rate of most Space Marines, period, is so high (over a long enough period of time) that the odds of earning that kind of retirement are ludicrously low. The kind of wounds that would cripple an Astartes would generally also kill him.

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Plus, if such warriors were around, would they still take up one of the 1000 slots within a chapter?
That's not an issue. A Chapter has well over a thousand Space Marines to begin with. Each Company has 10 Squads of 9 Astartes and a Sergeant. But it also has a Captain, a Chaplain, and a Command Squad. Right there, you busted the 1,000 man limit, and we haven't even gotten to the Librarius, the Apothecarion, the Reclusiam, the Armorium, etc.

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post #56 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 02:26 PM
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The thing is, Dante is said to be the oldest Marine around. At 1100 years. And just quoting you from your last post:

[QUOTE=Phoebus;774897
Finally, there will likely be some Astartes who endure such wounds over the course of their careers that they may very well become effectively crippled or reduced in mobility without actually dying. I would say such Astartes would become mentors and teachers at their Chapter's Fortress Monastery, overseeing Aspirants and such.
P.[/QUOTE]

And if such marines were to become tutors or mentors AND they were immortal, then surely we could have some marines live past Dante's 1100 years. They may not be the norm, but surely out of the active 1,000,000 marines out there, some mentor or tutor would be rather old, no?

And I'm not 100% that each company is made of 10 squads? I have to run to school right now, so if someone would be kind enough to look it up it'd be appreciated.

(I personally thought they were made up of 9 squads, plus the company squad, then 5 left over for extras.)
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post #57 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 02:42 PM
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They also get stuck in dreadnaughts don't they? Take Bjorn the Fell Handed, he's been around since Leman Russ was still about.
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post #58 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hailene View Post
And if such marines were to become tutors or mentors AND they were immortal, then surely we could have some marines live past Dante's 1100 years. They may not be the norm, but surely out of the active 1,000,000 marines out there, some mentor or tutor would be rather old, no?
I posited that they would likely be doing that IF they lived on, crippled and combat-ineffective. I also offered that it's highly unlikely that they would live on after such injuries that would cripple them regardless.

Put it this way. We know, via fluff, that Astartes can survive losing limbs (heck, the Iron Hands PREFER bionic limbs), blindness ("Brothers of the Snake"), etc. Given this, what kind of injury could render them incapable of fighting? Probably some sort of massive torso trauma. Surviving that would be incredibly rare.

Besides, the whole 40k universe is a mass of myth, superstition, and ignorance. Dante and Grimnar are known because they are legends in their own time. Why would anyone know about some poor rank-and-file Space Marine who got crippled during his first couple of centuries and has been doing nothing but sitting at the Fortress Monastery since then?

Quote:
And I'm not 100% that each company is made of 10 squads? I have to run to school right now, so if someone would be kind enough to look it up it'd be appreciated.
They are. Codex Battle Companies have ten squads: 6 Tactical, 2 Assault, and 2 Devastator. The Sixth and Seventh Reserve Companies each have 10 Tactical squads that also train on combat bikes and land speeders, respectively. The Eighth and Ninth have ten squads of Assault and Devastator Marines, respectively. The Tenth has ten squads of Scouts.

Of course, that's theoretical combat power. The reality is that they probably already have open slots, to reflect battle losses, etc.

Cheers,
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post #59 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 03:59 PM
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Think Dante is quite past the 1,100 year point by a long way aswell.

Qruze always confused me. He seems to be showing signs of age, not just his features, and the thoughts of others, but in the fight agaisnt Maggard it seemed to indicate he wasn't as fast as before. And if we dismiss the fact that he was a Cthonian and was actually a Terran and one of the first Luna Wolves as per his background it still doesn't really fit. Garro, Erebus(think it mentioned he was a terran in the First Heretic) and others who have fought since the beggining are showing no such signs of ageing like Qruze is. As for Dorns comment, i don't think he meant it like he was a relic of an older version of marines, i think he was just biting at his age in his anger or trying to hit a nerve
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post #60 of 71 (permalink) Old 11-02-10, 04:21 PM
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I think Dorn meant precisely that. I can't think of any other way to explain how Qruze alone shows his age and signs of physical infirmity (at least when compared to other Astartes).

I have no idea how to reconcile "False Gods" (Qruze being a Cthonian) with "Horus Rising" (Qruze being a veteran of the Unification Wars) unless I either accept that sometimes editors fail to pick up inconsistencies or that Cthonia is close enough to Terra that Qruze was able to get there without Warp travel.

There is, though another option that I can't believe I didn't consider before...

The entire Thirteenth Great Company of the Space Wolves was made up of Russ' Fenrisian lieutenants, men who were far beyond the safe age for someone to become an Astartes. Their appearance reflects this. What if Qruze also became an Astartes as an older man and somehow managed to make it? Any lack of strength he might suffer from compared to other Astartes might have to do with complications related to his unorthodox implantation process.
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