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post #161 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-16-10, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Khorothis View Post
Appear between the two armies, tell the nobles to get out or face annihilation and approach Angron only once he assured him he has no ill intentions, perhaps?
You're imposing knowledge you possess, as an outsider looking in, to the Emperor's actions.

Use the context made available by the fluff. The Emperor had no reason to assume Angron would go into a berserker killing rage. Every single Primarch he had met until then, even the sociopathic Night Haunter, had been well-balanced and lucid enough to allow for (at the very least) something resembling civil interactions.

By contrast, there's no indication that the Emperor had any knowledge of the political happenings on Angron's planet. More on this below.

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As far as I know, it is said that the nobles cut them down. If this was just a cover story and the Custodes killed them all then its not helping either. Appearing in the midst of an army ready to fight to the death isn't clever, and if you die because of it you're getting what you deserve.
The nobles didn't cut Angron's followers down while the Emperor and the surviving Custodes were there. Nor is there any indication or evidence that the Emperor and the surviving Custodes killed Angron's followers. Even if they did, though, Angron neither knew nor claimed that the Emperor or his men killed them directly.

At any rate, with your final statement you are again imposing a context only a reader is privileged with. Nothing about Imperial starships sensors indicates they get returns like "there appears to be an army ready to fight to death on the coordinates you indicated your son may be." And, again, no in-story context existed wherein the Emperor should have been worried about a blood-bath. More below on this.

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He didn't know Big E was his dad when he appeared. He didn't know he was there to make him a general of a legion of his own sons. He just appeared out of nowhere far too close. You'd expect Big E to be more clever than that. And as far as I know, Big E didn't really care about Angron, he just saw him as one of his gene-kids who were created to be his tools to conquer the galaxy. He didn't really try to befriend Angron (nor most of the Primarchs, though).
Angron's reaction would have been the same if any individual had popped there. Expect the Emperor to be more clever how? What previous encounter with a Primarch should have led him to assume that one of his sons--crafted to be brilliant geniuses, most of whom had an innate understanding of who he was when he revealed his true self--would be swinging first and asking questions later?

How do you befriend Angron? It's specifically qualified that he was permanently damaged by his surgery, consigned to a life of rage and fits that interrupted his thinking process. Not even Horus, whose charisma was legendary, and who courted him to join him in the Heresy was able to reach him on a meaningful level. The only people Angron loved and cared about were the people he identified with on an absolutely fundamental basis: his fellow gladiators, who suffered and were damaged like he was; and, eventually, his own Astartes, who, tellingly, ALSO underwent they same psycho-surgery as their master.

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Its not "assumed" because there is no info that says otherwise.
Actually, when you say something is assumed, you do so precisely BECAUSE all evidence points to it, even if it's not spelled out for you.

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Also, you ignoring the whole issue of leaving Angron's comrades in arms to die having an impact on his relationship with Big E leaves a huge hole in your argument.
No, I didn't; and no, it doesn't. I said it was a tragic situation because (A) it obviously affected Angron deeply, but (B) the Emperor had no way of knowing their meeting would turn to bloodshed and (C) more than likely, it's not as if Angron's men really gave him much of a chance to stick around or a reason to come back.

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... since [the Emperor] had all the resources to gain the knowledge he didn't have (which is apparently the only defending argument), yet he was in a rush to conquer a galaxy that could have survived the extra 10 minutes it would have took to bring himself up to speed on whats going on down there.
Genuine question: how?

I'm not trying to condemn Angron's warriors for possibly attacking--I already pointed out that they would have done so only due to their implants. Thus, that's no issue. The rest of your argument is said paragraph falls apart, though, when you consider that no other Primarch or Primarch's faction (go figure, none of them were implanted with chips that had them go from zero to KILL!!! in less than a second) felt the need to attack on sight.

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If Khan is a clone than so are many of the Primarchs. Hell, the whole Horus Heresy is roughly Lucifer's Fall from the Bible.
I never claimed otherwise!

What I stated, consistently, was that every other Primarch nonetheless had more depth and development. And that is true. Name me one other Primarch that is so tied in to one culture. Guilliman comes close, but at least he summons TWO cultures and isn't named "Gaius Octavian". Corax even borrows lines from the poet whose works he lifted his name off of, but at least his Legion don't dress like 19th century Americans, and his range of activities goes beyond the poetry of Poe.

Even Vulkan, who has been as invisible as Khan, has more depth since:
1. He and his society are no a virtual photocopy of an existing culture, and
2. He's not named after the second most famous warlord from said existing culture.

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My problem is that you're calling him a copypasta without him actually making an appearance, his Legion a ripoff without having a book or two to give the readers a better insight to their character, and that you're disregarding the few facts and implications that exist for no reason whatsoever. A fair approach would be "There isn't much written about him or his Legion, so I withold judgement, but what little there we know about them sounds promising". And thats what I'm missing.
First of all, the onus is on the AUTHOR to provide proper character depth and development. I am absolutely in no way required to like a character that has neither, besides direct dies to a historic culture and leader.

You are absolutely within your rights to like the fact that a fictional army is based on said things, and to look forward to the day when they do get books. But that in no way objectively prevents me from saying that I don't have to like a character that lacks any depth or development.

Again, it's the author's responsibility to do this. Period. They, for a variety of reasons, have chose NOT to do this in the 20+ years that this game has been about and the 15+ years that books, articles, and all sorts of other fluff were written about the various First Founding Chapters.

Furthermore, I absolutely stated that my view may very well change if and when the Khan and his White Scars receive the proper attention. For right now, though, I don't think it's either bizarre or unfair that I enjoy those Legions and Primarchs I can actually read something about more so than those that there's next to nothing on.

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You do realise that this is a contradiction? You dismiss the deeds of a fictional character who is yet to get a book or short story written about him, yet you praise a set of fictional characters who have? Sounds exactly what I said: childish and unfair.
It's neither a contradiction, nor is it childish and/or unfair.

Last edited by Phoebus; 11-16-10 at 06:23 AM.
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post #162 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-16-10, 08:25 AM
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So our argument regarding Angron's situation boils down to:

You: He didn't know!
Me: But he should have.
You: But he didn't!
Me: That doesn't mean he shouldn't have.
You: That doesn't mean he should have! Not a single Primarch attacked him when they first met!

While the White Scars/Khan goes like:

You: There is little to no fluff about them so I don't like them because they are obvious copypasta.
Me: There is little to no fluff to judge them by and what little is out there looks promising. Not to mention that lots of things in 40K are made of copypasta.
You: The other copypasta have more flavour, so I like them better than this bland, tasteless one. Its not even warm, either. Yuck.
Me: You're criticising a copypasta thats not even done.
You: Thats why I hate it.
Me: But that doesn't make any sense.
You: But it does!
Me: Okay, I can see how that makes sense but its still not fair.
You: If it makes sense its fair!

I feel no compulsion to continue this debate. I retire to do something more interesting.

The fool, the coward, and the ignorant proclaim that the warp is a realm of unknowable peril and indescribable terror, that it is the hell of countless ancient myths and legends. This is a lie, told by those whose authority is based on lies, to keep the masses terrified of the unknown. The warp is limitless power and its secrets are infinite; it is knowledge and strength, life and death, and the untapped potential to make and remake worlds. It takes only the discipline and the will to shape it; those who lack that clarity of purpose are liable to be shaped by it instead.

- Ahzek Ahriman of the Thousand Sons
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post #163 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-16-10, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorothis View Post
So our argument regarding Angron's situation boils down to:

You: He didn't know!
Me: But he should have.
You: How could he?
I hope you don't mind, I changed it for accuracy.

Quote:
While the White Scars/Khan goes like:

You: There is little to no fluff about them so I don't like them because they are obvious copypasta.
Me: There is little to no fluff to judge them by and what little is out there looks promising. Not to mention that lots of things in 40K are made of copypasta.
You: The other copypasta have more flavour, so I like them better than this bland, tasteless one. Its not even warm, either. Yuck.
Me: You're criticising a copypasta thats not even done.
The problem is that it IS done. It's BEEN done for decades. Where any additional, in-the-future material is concerned, I already stated that I could easily change my mind when new stuff is added. But I'm not simply going to ASSUME that said material will be better/more interesting than that which has already been done for other Legions and/or Primarchs.

Somehow, though, that point of view ended up being childish. Twice.

Have fun doing something more interesting!
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post #164 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-16-10, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorothis View Post
I feel no compulsion to continue this debate. I retire to do something more interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
Have fun doing something more interesting!

Well, that was anticlimactic.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.
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post #165 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-16-10, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorothis View Post
So our argument regarding Angron's situation boils down to:

You: He didn't know!
Me: But he should have.
You: But he didn't!
Me: That doesn't mean he shouldn't have.
You: That doesn't mean he should have! Not a single Primarch attacked him when they first met!

While the White Scars/Khan goes like:

You: There is little to no fluff about them so I don't like them because they are obvious copypasta.
Me: There is little to no fluff to judge them by and what little is out there looks promising. Not to mention that lots of things in 40K are made of copypasta.
You: The other copypasta have more flavour, so I like them better than this bland, tasteless one. Its not even warm, either. Yuck.
Me: You're criticising a copypasta thats not even done.
You: Thats why I hate it.
Me: But that doesn't make any sense.
You: But it does!
Me: Okay, I can see how that makes sense but its still not fair.
You: If it makes sense its fair!

I feel no compulsion to continue this debate. I retire to do something more interesting.
Let's get this straight, you call Phobeus childish for presenting a very well made and thought out arguement. And in response to said "childish" post, you go and type that? It's pretty clear who the childish one here is.

At no point does Phobeus even say he 'hates' Khan, he simply states that Khan is his least favourite primarch, with good reason, just because you may like Khan, doesn't mean everyone else has to aswell. And it's a completely valid point, in 20 years they haven't expanded on him at all, if anything they make him MORE like the Khan he is named from. And why is it such a wrong reason. So the other primarchs have elements of historical figures in them, but they have been changed alot and had more added in to distinguish them from whomever they have been losely based around. Khan on the other hasn't had anything else added to him at all, GW have pretty much slapped him down and said "here we have Genghis Khan....in space, enjoy" and done nothing further to develop him.

But then again you've already (childishly, again the irony here is killing me) decided to ignore any more posts in this thread so that you can't see how childish you actually look.
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post #166 of 166 (permalink) Old 11-16-10, 11:13 PM
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Least favorite Primarch: Fulgrim (Come on man, a fuckin sword is talking to you and you don't think something is up? Then you feel so bad that you tell this voice that you want out? Then you're surprised when a demon takes over your body?) Also, his whole attitude of trying to achieve "perfection," is a joke. The Emperor made you perfect for your task, be happy with it.

Least favorite legion: Emperor's Children. These treacherous clowns were trying to improve on that which was already perfect, and as a result betrayed the Imperium. They can fuck off.
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