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post #31 of 93 (permalink) Old 05-25-10, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
You have a very simple view of the 40k universe if you so readily label the Imperium as 'good' and Chaos as 'evil' (which is who I presume you are referring to) and make them out to be polar opposites.
Do not assume that you know my own understandings and beliefs that I apply to the universe that makes up Warhammer 40,000 when I have never described them to you.
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post #32 of 93 (permalink) Old 05-25-10, 10:16 PM
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Thats why I said 'I Presume'.

Then i'll ask - Do you consider the Imperium to be 'good' and Chaos 'bad'?



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post #33 of 93 (permalink) Old 05-25-10, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
Thats why I said 'I Presume'.

Then i'll ask - Do you consider the Imperium to be 'good' and Chaos 'bad'?
I dont considered one good or evil; its just dammed if you do and dammed if you dont.

But to make everyone feel good inside with a positive response, the Imperium is better... unless you take exquisite joy in having your soul munched on like a bag of Doritos.

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post #34 of 93 (permalink) Old 05-25-10, 10:47 PM
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They are both filth.... it's just that the imperium is an ever so slightly lighter shade of filth.
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post #35 of 93 (permalink) Old 05-28-10, 03:42 AM
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Thats why I said 'I Presume'.

Then i'll ask - Do you consider the Imperium to be 'good' and Chaos 'bad'?
All I said was that one day evil will be vanquished and good will prevail. I did not list any factions, cults or races. However when it comes to the Imperium I do not look at it as a single whole of any ideology. The Imperium has proven to be neither an absolute good nor evil; but an oppressive, galaxy spanning tyrant of human beings clinging to their former glory.

My comment about the chaos players threatening to burn my body was just a simple joke; but when it comes to chaos it is evil, the representation of our own evils, our own sins. Something we will never be rid of or fully control which raises the question of if it really is an absolute evil or not.

Now there may not be an exact representation of what make us good or our virtues in the form of any faction or race; but the good is there, it does exist and it will prevail

Yes I know chaos worshipers do your worse
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post #36 of 93 (permalink) Old 05-28-10, 09:55 AM
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but when it comes to chaos it is evil, the representation of our own evils, our own sins. Something we will never be rid of or fully control which raises the question of if it really is an absolute evil or not.
If I may be so bold as to quote myself from another thread (saves me paraphrasing everything). These are my personal views on the matter:

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And that is where the problem arises. Humans generally percieve 'evil' ultimately as something utterly unproductive to society, or something which goes against the social norm. But that doesn't necessarily mean such acts are universally and objectively evil, if such a concept even exists objectively.

From this human perspective Chaos is 'evil' because it corrupts, kills and generally goes against human perceptions of 'good'. But what Chaos truly represents is ultimate Chaos, pure and untroubled freedom. Unrestraint and liberty from social burdens. But does make it inherently evil? I would say not, it is a natural and elemental force - shaped by the base desires of mortals - so in this regard its no more evil than the base desires of humanity.
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...the Chaos Gods act as they do because they have no choice. They are the manifestations of the galaxy's most prominent emotions/thoughts/actions. Khorne cannot not kill people, because he literally is rage, anger and bloodshed. If he is evil, then anger in itself is evil. I think most people would agree that in order to be described as 'evil' at the very least you need free will and autonomy, something which in this regard the Chaos Gods do not have.
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But the problem there is that your judging their actions based from a human perspective. Humanity may see them as evil because they kill and devour. So by that you could label them as evil in a subjective sense, from a human viewpoint. But to call them universally evil is fraught with problems. Only if there is a universal morality, which the Tyranids oppose/go against can we then describe them as immoral/evil. Otherwise they are only evil according to humans who percieve them as such, and then its really only down to opinion.
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I disagree there. The Chaos Gods are the manifestations of the mortal psyche pushed to what the mortals base desires truly wish. Love for example is pushed its extreme, becoming mere lust and excess, for that is arguably what the base psyche ('Id') actually desires. Hope becomes flippant and constant change. Any sense of Honour or martial pride is pushed to rage and anger (and so on).

Its not that these things are evil or even 'darker' as you said. They just represent what truly free (from social burdens etc) and natural mortals would long for. And yes these things obviously have to be suppressed in order for human culture and society to function (it gets a bit Freudian here!) but they are ultimately what our base desires yearn for.
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Aye. But again I would find it a struggle to call such a thing inherently evil. Humans may well percieve it as an evil force because it cannot coexist with established and 'civilised' norms, but in essence it as you said just reflects the emotions, thoughts and actions of mortals.

Personally, to describe something as 'evil' at the very least they would need Free Will - and I think most people would agree with that.

Now you could argue that the Chaos Gods don't have free will at all. They are not only utterly enslaved to their respective emotions, but actually are said emotions incarnate. Khorne is not an entity which experiances anger or hate, he literally is anger and hate. He cannot not kill people or cause as much bloodshed as possible - because thats what he is with every single fibre of his being. He does not have the choice to show mercy or to not cause bloodshed, he has to.

This is further enforced by the fact that the Chaos Gods are natural occurences, just as much as humanity. They are wild and elemental, but I cannot bring myself to describe them as evil - because they represent the base desires of mortals, regardless or not if it is productive towards society.



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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
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post #37 of 93 (permalink) Old 05-28-10, 01:56 PM
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In response to the OP, it is indeed hard to find optimists for races in the grim darkness setting that 40k is in. However, I've always been optimistic about Farsight's Tau being loyal and some optimism being injected into the setting( if only because I play them) I did think that about the whole of Tau, what with them being a young, growing race, but the unknown way the ethereals control them has always bugged me and made them a little less of an optimistic group. Keep up the optimism though, their isn't that much going around in 40k.


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post #38 of 93 (permalink) Old 05-28-10, 03:06 PM
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If I may be so bold as to quote myself from another thread (saves me paraphrasing everything). These are my personal views on the matter:
I consider myself an optimist of the game. I know that humanity will prevail in the end. So please don't leave the hobby there is still hope in the universe.

As for the Good/bad thing, here are my thoughts on that matter:

To consider some faction good and the oher evil does not mean that one has a simple point of view. Of course good and evil depends of one's beliefs and principles, but there are some universal principles that by definition are not relative. Think for example in survival. Each and every race in the universe is bound to survive, procreate and endure (heck even chaos wants to survive to continue "chaos-ing" everyone). So in this regard, one can and will consider anyone or anything evil if it goes against this principle. Its universal and applies to everyone/everything. Chaos wants us all dead? Then they are evil, just as a lion is evil to the farmer when it eats his cattle. Of course the very notion of good/evil requires some level of inteligence, to name it as such. The lion will never call the hunter evil, but it knows that he's up to something "not good" and either fights back or flees (instinct tells it that the hunter is up to no good, call it evil in human words).

As I see it Chaos is the physical counterpart of everything that is good and just with humanity and they thrive to corrupt it. So if humanity has love, in the warp they have lust, we have loyalty, they have betrayal, and so on. The Chaos gods are by definition evil not only to humanity but to all races in the universe, since they oppose that which they stand for (be it pure hunger, total domination, etc.) This makes our hobby such a great one, because humanity fuels the Chaos gods, not with "pure acts of evil" but with the opposite. This is a very interesting dichotomy and represents the always-refered struggle of good vs. evil. No humanity, no chaos, new hobby for us.

So to round things up, I do believe that one can call chaos evil, perhaps more evil than any other race because of what they embody. In the end each race is only trying to survive, which I think, is a GOOD thing.
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post #39 of 93 (permalink) Old 05-29-10, 12:51 AM Thread Starter
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Perhaps I should modify my original request:

"Where (If at all) can I find anyone else who wants to see tau, imperium, and eldar form alliance for grand endgame against other factions."

Extremely unlikely, yes, but not totally impossible. Please don't question how likely or not that is to occur. (I myself have thought of a way, but it is still a very unlikely but not impossible way. I no longer care about who I share my ideas with. I would accept feedback from an idiot or moron as long as it is genuinely positive.
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post #40 of 93 (permalink) Old 05-30-10, 09:09 AM
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Okay, Platy, I`ll have a go.

Imperium, Eldar and Tau alliance? Here goes...

The Imperium as we know it collapses, and Terra is lost. The tau capitalise on the loss of imperial faith and successfully integrate dozens of faith forlorn human worlds into their fold. Their strength only grows from here, and within a few decades even ultramar has agreed to form a treaty with the empire. FTL technology is developed which frees them from ultra dependance on the warp.
The Eldar of the eastern side of the galaxy recognise a chance to unite with a strong and open minded faction, and become advisors. Their farseers guide the military might of the alliance to where it is needed most, and the forces of chaos are sent reeling. Now able to use the webway to transport far greater armies, the Eldar begin to see hope in their futures, and their faith is not misplaced as the tau and human armies devastate all would be foes with advanced technology and inexhaustable armies. The future has never looked brighter, and even the eldar are not looking back.

How`s that?

Optimism is kinda fun! Don`t leave the hobby. Remember it is entirely up to you how YOU want to interpret it. If you can see hope, then ther IS hope! (despite my old signature) And let none dispute that! (Raises fist in triumph!)


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