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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-03-10, 11:11 AM
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Er wrong. Sorry but you're dead wrong there. This is why the Chaos Gods used Horus. Not because there was something they could do to him that they could do to nobody else. But because in the final confrontation The Big E wouldn't want to strike down Horus. Yes Horus was tough but he was also the favoured and most beloved son, by using him and not mutating him beyond all recognition like say Angron or Mortarion all the Emperor could see was his boy and he still harboured that very human emotion that Horus could be brought back and subcontiously limited himself.

When the Big E DID use his full power he killed Horus in one shot.
So the Chaos powers for over the span of a hundred+ years chose Horus as their vessel because they assumed the Emp wouldn't kill him or go full force out of love for Horus, especially if they made him retain his humanoid form?

Doesn't sound logical.

And the emp didn't kill him in one shot, first sang. had to rip an opening into Horus's seemingly impenetrable armor (one definite sign that the chaos powers didn't choose horus in their hopes that the emp. wouldn't go full kill mode on him since they buffed his armor to crazy levels) then a huge battle ensued with the emp. finally destroying horus's soul.

The long battle is a fact because of how long it took for Dorn to get from wherever he was in space at the time to the emp, and then found him dying on the stairs.

It wasn't a five minute thing with the emp going 'oh snap horus u disrepectin' me, imma cut you foo' 'BRING IT'.


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Anyway back on topic. Like has allready been said I think Sanguinius having a clearer head and more experience fighting on the wing is going to tip the battle. People seem to assume that Daemon= miles better. But I disagree I've had moments on the tabletop were Daemon Princes have been ripped a new one by Space Marine Captains who's to say the same sort of thing couldn't happen with the Primarchs?

We also have to ask ourselves where does Daemon Angron stand when compared to Kyriss the Perverse and Ka'Bhanda (spelling?) Who were both unique greater Daemons. Ka'Bhanda is also described as the greatest of the Blood Thirsters of Khorne and we all know what Sanguinius did to him, sure he got beat up but he still won! Remember Sanguinius is named the Bane of Daemons If I was a Daemon Primarch I would stay the futch away from him....and Rogal Dorn.
Again, Daemon Primarch = he's like 20 feet tall, AKA HUGE. Sang never killed a daemon primarch, just some bloodletters who if I'm not mistaken are not very intelligent, just bloodthirsty and strong but if I'm mistaken on that, I'm positive they aren't nearly as intelligent as a Primarch. Angron, being a Primarch and a Daemon AKA Daemon Prince, is just going to destroy Sang. Just because Sang can fly means nothing, he still has to get into melee range in order to fight Angron who as I stated earlier could just grab him in mid air and pluck his wings like a fly and proceed to destroy him.

Tabletop is tabletop, I never got into the board-game with their special rules and whatever, I'm sticking by the novels/fluff/logic.

Rogal Dorn is a joke, the Night Haunter destroyed him easily and he was just mad, not even a daemon prince. It depends on the mentality of that person, there have been many instances of skinny people beating up people bigger than them because of their aggressive natures.

I don't think the Night Haunter was that different from RDorn physically but mentally he was in a whole different league, he was extremely aggressive and battle hardened. So the same can be said of Angron but he was the most aggressive of the primarchs by at least tenfold. His gladiatorial past, use of aggressive enhancers, killing eldar assassins the moment he landed as a child/young adult, etc. all indicate this.

And the fight can pretty much be summarized into daemon primarchs being essentially immortal so he can't really lose.

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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-03-10, 11:50 AM
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To reiterate and expand on my original argument. My take on it is that Corax seemed pretty doubtful that Sanguinius or Horus could best Angron in single combat and was sure he couldn't. Now, as someone mentioned earlier, that is only Corax's opinion - however, as he's talking about people he knows intimately (his own brothers), then I'm inclined to give more weight to his opinion than that of us mere forumites. Thus I'm fairly happy with the conclusion that before his ascension to daemonhood Angron would beat Sanguinius (not every time obviously, but on average he'd win more bouts than Sanguinius - although it would be close).

Also, when they were both 'normal' primarchs, Sanguinius had wings and Angron didn't, but Corax wasn't sure that Sanguinius would win. I don't see that Angron being gifted a pair of wings suddenly make him less capable of defeating Sanguinius if he had a better than even chance of winning without them?

I also believe it's a mistake to think of Angron as little more than a mindless berserker - he may be more inclined than his brothers to give in to his rage, but he's still an engineered superhuman created to be a powerful warrior with both body and mind. Angron may not be as much of a thinker as some of his brothers, but he's still a Primarch and I don't see that Sanguinius would have as much of an advantage on that score as others seem to think.

The talk of Sanguinius having this weapon or that weapon seems fairly irrelevant - all of the primarchs had their favoured weapons and it appears that they were all extremely potent. Sanguinius may have had a powerful weapon that perfectly suits his style of fighting, but then so would Angron. I'm therefore inclined to say that they'd cancel each other out in terms of deciding who'd win this fight.

For me it boils down to the question of would Angron be more or less powerful after his ascension? Well, every account I can think of where a mortal is elevated to daemonhood has them being considerably more powerful afterwards and I don't remember any instance of them needing much time to adapt to their new form - their new powers seem to come naturally to them. Assuming that this is the case with Angron (and as far as I can see there's no reason to suppose it wouldn't be) then yes, Angron would be more powerful afterwards. Of course, as has been mentioned, the changes wrought to his body will also change the nature of his power - he may be more powerful overall, but it's possible that the changes will leave an opening for Sanguinius to exploit.

Therefore it seems to me that, if Angron was likely to win the fight before his ascension, then the best anyone could say is that they think Sanguinius would win assuming that Angron was 'weakened' in some way by becoming a daemon prince - and that seems like a pretty big assumption to me.

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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-03-10, 11:56 AM
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To reiterate and expand on my original argument. My take on it is that Corax seemed pretty doubtful that Sanguinius or Horus could best Angron in single combat and was sure he couldn't. Now, as someone mentioned earlier, that is only Corax's opinion - however, as he's talking about people he knows intimately (his own brothers), then I'm inclined to give more weight to his opinion than that of us mere forumites. Thus I'm fairly happy with the conclusion that before his ascension to daemonhood Angron would beat Sanguinius (not every time obviously, but on average he'd win more bouts than Sanguinius - although it would be close).

Also, when they were both 'normal' primarchs, Sanguinius had wings and Angron didn't, but Corax wasn't sure that Sanguinius would win. I don't see that Angron being gifted a pair of wings suddenly make him less capable of defeating Sanguinius if he had a better than even chance of winning without them?

I also believe it's a mistake to think of Angron as little more than a mindless berserker - he may be more inclined than his brothers to give in to his rage, but he's still an engineered superhuman created to be a powerful warrior with both body and mind. Angron may not be as much of a thinker as some of his brothers, but he's still a Primarch and I don't see that Sanguinius would have as much of an advantage on that score as others seem to think.

The talk of Sanguinius having this weapon or that weapon seems fairly irrelevant - all of the primarchs had their favoured weapons and it appears that they were all extremely potent. Sanguinius may have had a powerful weapon that perfectly suits his style of fighting, but then so would Angron. I'm therefore inclined to say that they'd cancel each other out in terms of deciding who'd win this fight.

For me it boils down to the question of would Angron be more or less powerful after his ascension? Well, every account I can think of where a mortal is elevated to daemonhood has them being considerably more powerful afterwards and I don't remember any instance of them needing much time to adapt to their new form - their new powers seem to come naturally to them. Assuming that this is the case with Angron (and as far as I can see there's no reason to suppose it wouldn't be) then yes, Angron would be more powerful afterwards. Of course, as has been mentioned, the changes wrought to his body will also change the nature of his power - he may be more powerful overall, but it's possible that the changes will leave an opening for Sanguinius to exploit.

Therefore it seems to me that, if Angron was likely to win the fight before his ascension, then the best anyone could say is that they think Sanguinius would win assuming that Angron was 'weakened' in some way by becoming a daemon prince - and that seems like a pretty big assumption to me.
I agree fully.

Angron is the most aggressive of the Primarchs, with Night Haunter being the most sadistic/darkest.

If Angron were to fight Sang. on equal grounds (the former not being a daemon and the latter having his wings), Angron would win hands down due to his ruthelessness which would add to his strength by a huge margin despite pretty boy's ability to fly.

I don't get why people assume that simply because Sang. can fly he automatically wins.

Can an eagle take on a lion simply because it can fly?

If people are going to go down the 'but sang. can hit and run' road, don't think Angron wouldn't know what to do or that he wouldn't be able to cut Sang. down.

Angron was a gladiator, he knows all the methods of brutal fighting, dirty or otherwise.

Angron could easily aim for Sang's wings, clipping him or fully slicing them off with whatever weapon he usually uses or with his brute strength.

Bottom line: aggressive primarch with no rules versus text-book heroic primarch
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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-03-10, 01:01 PM
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Ka'Bhanda is also described as the greatest of the Blood Thirsters of Khorne and we all know what Sanguinius did to him, sure he got beat up but he still won!
Ka'Bandha was described as the 'Lord of Bloodthirsters' I believe in the CV, but it seems evident that there are more powerful Greater Daemons (Skarbrand and An'ggrath spring to mind). Yes Sanguinius besting Ka'Bandha was a great feat of arms, but let us not forget that during there first encounter Ka'Bandha triumphed, broke Sanguinius' legs, but spared his life so he could witness his legion get butchered - this was such an event that began the manifestation of the Black Rage/Red Thirst.

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We assume that Daemonic = More powerful, but does it? Might Daemonic just = Differently powerful? Now, I'm not saying this is the case mind, but just throwing it out there.
Thats a good point, but I would still say that rising to Daemonhood makes one more powerful.

They become immortal, unkillable, a living avatar of their patron god. Angron's fury and strength is all but unmatched, except perhaps by the greatest and oldest of Bloodthirsters and by Doombreed.

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Do we have real written examples of them becoming vastly more powerful immediately, or does it take time?
Ascending to Daemonhood isn't an endeavour that takes a few years to complete, it is insant and full - the individual is reborn in mind, body and soul. Mortal becomes Daemonic in every aspect and fibre of being. Angron's fury, abilities, strength and battle prowess simply all got greatly enhanced. He became removed (more so than he originally was) from human morality, social burdens, and other distractions. And now is a literal manifestation of Rage, Fury and Anger. A diobolic monster that cannot be killed and cannot be bested.

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Will their new form give them the ability to engage fully with the warp, or just with the things that meshed with their attitudes beforehand? EG, As a Daemon of Khorne, will Angron just be able to power himself with the immortal anger of Khorne himself, or could he make the ground turn to water and turn bystanders into spawn as well?
Well I assume it depends. Daemons of Khorne represent and are arguably a part of the Blood God himself, thus manifest as Avatars of Khorne. They are brutal, direct, strong and full of unending rage.

Turning the ground to water and gifting bystanders with spawndom reeks of sorcery to me, best leave that to the Tzeentchians, and leave bashing to the Khornates

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In the end, is a daemon Primarch better in every way, or would Angron just be more, well, Angron-y? In there, somewhere, I feel might lie some way of making a choice that isn't just based on what character you happen to like most.
Saying he is better in every way in this regard is relative. They are different beings completley. Sanguinius is human (as far as being a Primarch allows him to be anyway), Angron is daemon. This in itself puts them on vastly different playing fields.

But seeing as though Angron (Pre-Ascension) was arguably one of the most, if not the most martial primarch, and seeing his rage, strength, power and influence vastly improved by ascending to Daemonhood - aside from the fact that he is now unkillable and removed completely from mortal 'hinderances', now a living Avatar of the Blood God - in my opinion puts him at a great advantage in regards to facing Sanguinius.

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To reiterate and expand on my original argument. My take on it is that Corax seemed pretty doubtful that Sanguinius or Horus could best Angron in single combat and was sure he couldn't. Now, as someone mentioned earlier, that is only Corax's opinion - however, as he's talking about people he knows intimately (his own brothers), then I'm inclined to give more weight to his opinion than that of us mere forumites. Thus I'm fairly happy with the conclusion that before his ascension to daemonhood Angron would beat Sanguinius (not every time obviously, but on average he'd win more bouts than Sanguinius - although it would be close).
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Therefore it seems to me that, if Angron was likely to win the fight before his ascension, then the best anyone could say is that they think Sanguinius would win assuming that Angron was 'weakened' in some way by becoming a daemon prince - and that seems like a pretty big assumption to me.
Totally Agree.



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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-03-10, 05:07 PM
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And the emp didn't kill him in one shot, first sang. had to rip an opening into Horus's seemingly impenetrable armor (one definite sign that the chaos powers didn't choose horus in their hopes that the emp. wouldn't go full kill mode on him since they buffed his armor to crazy levels) then a huge battle ensued with the emp. finally destroying horus's soul.
Erm where on earth have you gotten the idea that Sangunius breached Horus' armour, and that that infact aided the Emperor?

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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-03-10, 08:24 PM
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I think different people are getting their takes on what happened between the final battle of the Emperor and Horus from different books. If I'm not mistaken, each Warhammer rulebook has tweaked the story of the Emperor and Horus. For example, in one story it states that a lone Custodian found the Emperor, while a newer version thats that it was Rogal Dorn. I think the latest addition (correct me if I'm wrong) states that Sanguinius was only able to create one chink in Horus's armour, but it was with that chink that the Emperor was able to kill Horus. In fact I think I remember one edition saying that a lone guardsman stood over the Emperor's dying form and defied Horus before being cut down in one stroke, and it was this that made the Emperor see what his son had become.

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So the Chaos powers for over the span of a hundred+ years chose Horus as their vessel because they assumed the Emp wouldn't kill him or go full force out of love for Horus, especially if they made him retain his humanoid form?

Doesn't sound logical.
I think it sounds perfectly logical. They could have used any warrior to be their vessel, and arguably there were better candidates for possession- Sanguinius for example, who (again, arguably) was a better fighter than Horus. The Gods chose Horus not because he was a good fighter, good tactician, or whatever (even though he was many of those things), but because when it came down the final confrontation the Emperor would not be able to bring himself to kill his beloved son. They knew that martial skill would mean nothing to the Emperor's abilities, so they went the clever path. They almost assured their victory, knowing the love between the son and father. It was only Horus's bloodlust (killing the lone guardsman/Custodian, different rulebooks disagree) that allowed to the Emperor to mentally flay Horus apart.

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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-03-10, 10:38 PM
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Erm where on earth have you gotten the idea that Sangunius breached Horus' armour, and that that infact aided the Emperor?
It's something well established in the WH40k story line... see below.

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I think the latest addition (correct me if I'm wrong) states that Sanguinius was only able to create one chink in Horus's armour, but it was with that chink that the Emperor was able to kill Horus.
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I think it sounds perfectly logical. They could have used any warrior to be their vessel, and arguably there were better candidates for possession-
Sanguinius for example, who (again, arguably) was a better fighter than Horus. The Gods chose Horus not because he was a good fighter, good tactician, or whatever (even though he was many of those things), but because when it came down the final confrontation the Emperor would not be able to bring himself to kill his beloved son. They knew that martial skill would mean nothing to the Emperor's abilities, so they went the clever path.
Horus is stated to have been the best fighter amongst the Primarchs. But yes they didn't pick him due to his marital prowess.

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They almost assured their victory, knowing the love between the son and father. It was only Horus's bloodlust (killing the lone guardsman/Custodian, different rulebooks disagree) that allowed to the Emperor to mentally flay Horus apart.
That's according to you, I follow the more mainstream version of Horus's defeat being due partially to battling with Sanguinius before confornting the emperor.

They couldn't have picked any other Primarch except for Horus.

Why?

Because he became flawed, doubting the purpose of the emperor's work and began to suspect the emperor of betraying the very concepts he taught his primarch sons and the imperium.

This paranoia was a result of the emperor placing the title of warmaster upon primarch and then retreating to his palace in terra for a period of several years and also was planted into Horus. The chaos powers embedded many forms of corruption within the primarchs as they were scattered across the galaxy, some were given physical mutations:
  • Sanguinius's wings
  • Magnus's eye
  • Russ's teeth/wolf persona
  • aggressive un-primarch like traits like extreme aggression (Angron),

    Some were given less subtle forms of corruption:
  • The powers perhaps altered the course of some primarchs, like Nighthaunter, to land on awful planets that would change their blank mental states into something else, and in his case being a criminal-infested planet which turned him into a sadistic person
  • Mortarion landing on a dark planet whose dark leader, whom he defied at the end, but nevertheless grew to love (something similar to stockholm syndrome), only to see the emperor strike down, leading Mortarion to hold a grudge against him.
  • And with Horus's case that was doubt.

Horus, becoming the Warmaster, was burdened with the control of the entire Imperium's every decision in a very hectic period.
This stress began to eat away at his resolve, making his suspicions of the emperor begin to grow and grow. And the chaos powers seeing the time was ripe, sent Erebus to give the fabled sword Anathame to Eugen Tembato to poison the Horus and then Erebus set to work at corrupting the Horus with the aid of the chaos rituals at Davin.

They worked very hard at corrupting Horus, his position as the emperor's son was a very crucial step in their choosing of him as well for what better candidate for their goal of destroying/corrupting the Imperium than the emperor's most favorite and trusted son and the military leader of the war effort.

The emperor's favoritism of horus enabled him to see many hidden secrets amongst other things that other primarchs weren't in a position to see.

Sanguinius as I mentioned earlier is a textbook hero and doubts and paranoia of the emperor were not placed into him like they were with horus. Horus was a born leader, and his personality of wanting to be in the seat of power and his large ambition to rise in power aided the chaos powers greatly in turning him to their side. Sanguinius was very subservient to the emperor and had no such ambition.

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I think different people are getting their takes on what happened between the final battle of the Emperor and Horus from different books. If I'm not mistaken, each Warhammer rulebook has tweaked the story of the Emperor and Horus. For example, in one story it states that a lone Custodian found the Emperor, while a newer version thats that it was Rogal Dorn. I think the latest addition (correct me if I'm wrong) states that Sanguinius was only able to create one chink in Horus's armour, but it was with that chink that the Emperor was able to kill Horus. In fact I think I remember one edition saying that a lone guardsman stood over the Emperor's dying form and defied Horus before being cut down in one stroke, and it was this that made the Emperor see what his son had become.
Indeed, there are several different accounts of the Emperor's duel with Horus. But regarding the account that stated that Sanguinius' sacrifice (by opening up a small hole in Horus' armour) was what enabled the Emperor to defeat Horus - is part of the older editions rather than the more recent ones. It may have actually been the first account of the duel released many years ago. I believe the most recent account (published in 2007) is the Collected Visions which didn't include Sanguinius damaging Horus' armour.



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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-04-10, 06:22 AM
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From what I remember, the original source says that Blood Angels doctrine claims that Sanguinius opened a chink in the armour of Horus enabling the Emperor to slay Horus. It's not presented as a fact, by any means and may in fact be totally untrue - it's believed because, if true, it means that Sanguinius did not die in vain. The 'first hand' accounts of the duel between Horus and the Emperor (the one by William King for instance) don't include it.

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The chaos powers embedded many forms of corruption within the primarchs as they were scattered across the galaxy, some were given physical mutations:
That's a whole lot of assumptions there - sure most of them fit the facts, but they're still speculation.

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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-04-10, 03:08 PM
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This paranoia was a result of the emperor placing the title of warmaster upon primarch and then retreating to his palace in terra for a period of several years and also was planted into Horus. The chaos powers embedded many forms of corruption within the primarchs as they were scattered across the galaxy, some were given physical mutations:
  • Sanguinius's wings
  • Magnus's eye
  • Russ's teeth/wolf persona
  • aggressive un-primarch like traits like extreme aggression (Angron),

    Some were given less subtle forms of corruption:
  • The powers perhaps altered the course of some primarchs, like Nighthaunter, to land on awful planets that would change their blank mental states into something else, and in his case being a criminal-infested planet which turned him into a sadistic person
  • Mortarion landing on a dark planet whose dark leader, whom he defied at the end, but nevertheless grew to love (something similar to stockholm syndrome), only to see the emperor strike down, leading Mortarion to hold a grudge against him.
  • And with Horus's case that was doubt.
.
Was it stated that Magnus lost his eye due to Chaos corruption anywhere?

I think Russ got his "wolfish persona" from the inhabitants of Fenris, not Chaos corruption.

Angron's angry behaviour is largely due to the various brain implants he has, increasing his anger and impatience tenfold.

Horus's doubt was largely due to Erebus's influence- although it is true his morale took quite a batter when the Emperor revealed to him that he was leaving the crusade.
Oh yes, and by the way, to your argument that Sanguinius was too much of a "textbook hero"- Chaos can corrupt anything, even the greatest of men.

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