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post #31 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-28-09, 11:44 AM
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I think Alot of people are forgetting that Magnus and Arhiman are very powerful Psykers but there biggest advantage comes from Sorcerery which is more potent than Psychic abilities, but more corruptable that is why the Emperor forbide it to Magnus who used it anyways. Ahriman Power is the same.

Anywho based on Some BL books ive read and and Codex Fluff I say the Baddest are listed as such.

Emperor
Chaos empowered Horus (the guy battled the Emperor on the Psyplane and the Big E had to commit to killing Horus to win, in much fluff it says Horus let his gaurd down and thats how the Emperor was able to Barely win)
Magnus the Red
Eldard
Ahriman
Malcador
Greater Deamons / Deamon Princes / Alpha Psykers
Farseers / Librarians / CSM Sorcerors

and everythin else falls short really. I think the Alpha Psykers are overated. If there so powerful then why do they get crusified by delta class Inquisitors, if they can snap a finger and blow up planets then how can any force stop them? You would have them place as bigger threats than Abbaddon. Yeah Right. They rate no higher than Powerful Deamon Princes (who conqure whole wolrds with ease in some fluff, like Daemon World from BL) and Lords of Change like Fate Weaver.
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post #32 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-28-09, 12:08 PM
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I'm slightly confused as to how the novel "Fulgrim" could be used as a source for what happened to Eldrad, considering that was many thousands of years before?

The passage you quoted seems more like the Chaos take on events, and the one I quoted is the Eldar point of view.

Magnus became a demon prince through himself being manipulated. He wasn't a powerful enough Seer to predict his own future, pierce the veil Tzeentch had laid in front of him, or convince the Emperor of Horus's betrayal until it was too late. I don't deny that he was/is powerful as a demon prince, I simply point out that he failed at every single one of his aspirations *as a Primarch*.

And not everything I said about Eldrad was to be taken literally, the "skull underneath his boot" thing was a joke...

Either way, I'd rank him at least equal to, or slightly above the psychic Primarchs. Ahriman really doesn't have a patch on him in terms of pure controlled psychic energy.

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post #33 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-28-09, 02:01 PM
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I don't know about other armies but in the Marines sense I'm pretty sure the list goes (speaking more along the lines of 30k as well, as in all time)

-Emperor
-Magnus
-Ahriman
-Sanguineous
-Mephiston
-Tigurius

I just say this from what I have read/seen (please...not the whip oh lords T.T )
Reasons: The Emp...o' course
Magnus was originally the one who was going to power the golden throne
Ahriman is said to have matched Magnus in power
Sanguineous (when alive...) was actually pretty psychicly potent allowing him to see his own death....and send a psychic scream throughout all time and space
Mephiston overcame the black rage and red thirst through a mighty will, giving him awesome power (as NOT listed in his codex T.T )
Tigurius is a close call with Mephiston, plus I haven't read much on him, just enough to know that he is pretty potent.
Last note: I came across two bits of lore that I found interesting. One said that a truly pure Inquisitor entered the black library, and another talks about a girl who completed Tzeench's maze. These two HAVE to be pretty boss if you ask me

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post #34 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-28-09, 05:17 PM
 
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I've read the Chaos Deamons Codex... and just like the other codecies, I think it tells us the same story we already know, in different words. its not a source of much new fluff, just a compilation if you will. I wil say, I did like it though, and it was a fun read.

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Horus' Vision in the Horus Heresy Novels states that the Chaos Gods 'abducted' the Primarchs to get back at the Emperor who stole some of there power and who was using it to slowly destroy/weaken their Realm.
I wouldn't use this a source sinse the whole purpose of the visions sent to Horus were meant to deceive him. Not to say that the Chaos Gods wouldn't have used some truth aginst him, but its unlikely they would explaining anything on the cosmic scale to Horus, just so they could turn him against his father.

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But in the 'current' environment in M41, tell me, who is it that is 'winning'? The 'current' state of affairs is arguably the most favourable outcome for Chaos
Gotta disagree. I think the whole point of having a never-ending struggle is exactly that; it never ends. No one side has the upper hand. If by military strategum you had to deduce who could muster the greatest numbers and conquer the most space, that is currently the Imperium. And I think the Orks and Nids stand a greater chance of victory by extention of the fact that they suffer absolutely nothing by loosing what few numbers the other races kill.

I've heard it written before that the Emperor "suffers" by I've never hears it written as a fact, it was dialogue, from one character to another, spoken. Its pretty clear, by the way the fluff is written, that in 40k saying someone suffers could mean something well above or beyond the concept of physical pain... I have no doubt that the Emperor "suffers" daily. If I were the ruler of the galaxy and my favorite son betrayed my in such a fashion, I would also be heartbroken, no matter great a warrior or Psyker I was. I would lock myself away and probably never want to face anyone ever again, that level of betrayel cuts deep. Its called the Great Betrayal becouse of this... not the every day variety of betrayal. To me... that's suffering.

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No, The Emperor does not have a choice. He is forced to sit upon the Golden Throne. Not only that but on the Golden Throne he is sealing the Imperial Webway Gate and guiding the Astronomican.
I simply can't beleive that the Emperor could reach across the galaxy froom Terra, and restore a dead follower to life (a follower whose body as far more broken than his own as she was brutally hacked to peices by orks before she was recovered by her sisters). He not only restored her form but took her soul from the warp and gave it back to her... that can't be simple. You honestly think he can do that but can't repair his own body? Plus, I made another post in a different thread about how common bionics are in the 41st millenium. Techpreists replace people's brains and organs regularly and the lives of even regular humans span hunreds of years... couple the strength of this universe's sci-fi bionic medicine and the Emperor undaunted Psychic power and tell me he can't just will himself off that golden throne and back into the scene if he so chose.

the only reason he sits there is by choice... his heart is utterly broken and he will probably never get up. But not becouse he can't... there simply isn't anything to account for that.
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post #35 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-28-09, 05:53 PM
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Again i'll pull you back to my original point of not being able to class the Chaos Gods as 'psykers' and not really being able to compare their power to the Emperors. The Chaos Gods are complete Warp entities, for the most part they don't even care about the Material Galaxy. They realised that the Emperor intended to weaken them through his various schemes so they temporarily united to prevent him from doing so. All they did was corrupt Horus and infuse and bless him with some power, and look at the results; The Emperor's body shattered, his sons turned against him and Humanity doomed to a slow death.

Its not because the Emperor is more powerful or better than the Chaos Gods, its because he possessed the means by which to weaken Chaos. Deprive the Gods of their primary power source; Humanity.

So its not that the Emperor is more powerful, its just that he realised their weakness, & when he tried to exploit it the Chaos Gods engineered the Horus Heresy to stop him... and it worked!
Would you agree with me on the above quote from my previous post though?

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Originally Posted by Prince Endymion View Post
I've read the Chaos Deamons Codex... and just like the other codecies, I think it tells us the same story we already know, in different words. its not a source of much new fluff, just a compilation if you will. I wil say, I did like it though, and it was a fun read.
Well I feel it explores the background more in depth than any other source rather than just a simple compilation. It also adds the 'Great Game' as a piece of fluff where as before it was simply said that the Gods were rivals and warred amongst themselves for example!

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I wouldn't use this a source sinse the whole purpose of the visions sent to Horus were meant to deceive him. Not to say that the Chaos Gods wouldn't have used some truth aginst him, but its unlikely they would explaining anything on the cosmic scale to Horus, just so they could turn him against his father.
Indeed. But who is to say that the Chaos Gods weren't telling the truth?

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Originally Posted by Prince Endymion View Post
Gotta disagree. I think the whole point of having a never-ending struggle is exactly that; it never ends. No one side has the upper hand. If by military strategum you had to deduce who could muster the greatest numbers and conquer the most space, that is currently the Imperium. And I think the Orks and Nids stand a greater chance of victory by extention of the fact that they suffer absolutely nothing by loosing what few numbers the other races kill.
Im not talking about who can muster the most troops or who can conquer the most space. But who actually dominants the galaxy? The Imperium may control the largest area of consistent space, and posess the largest armed forces. But that is nothing. The only human that ever posed a threat to Chaos was the Emperor, and he is now incapable of continuing his war against Chaos. The Chaos Gods are free to continue the Great Game unhindered, with no major threat to their dominance. Where as the Imperium on the other hand is crumbling from within and faces constant wars on its borders. Tell me who triumphed in the Horus Heresy out of Horus and the Emperor? The Emperor. But who triumped out of The Emperor and the Chaos Gods? the Chaos Gods. The Imperium poses no threat at all to the Chaos Gods, the Imperium if anything actually benefits Chaos.

Also remember to differentiate between the goals and purposes of the Chaos Followers and the Chaos Gods themselves.

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I've heard it written before that the Emperor "suffers" by I've never hears it written as a fact, it was dialogue, from one character to another, spoken. Its pretty clear, by the way the fluff is written, that in 40k saying someone suffers could mean something well above or beyond the concept of physical pain... I have no doubt that the Emperor "suffers" daily. If I were the ruler of the galaxy and my favorite son betrayed my in such a fashion, I would also be heartbroken, no matter great a warrior or Psyker I was. I would lock myself away and probably never want to face anyone ever again, that level of betrayel cuts deep. Its called the Great Betrayal becouse of this... not the every day variety of betrayal. To me... that's suffering.
Yes i didn't mean suffer physically (because obviously his physical self is little more than a skeleton) but mentally and spiritually.

Its not necessarily because of the loss of his favourite son, but more due to the constant exhaustion and labour of having to seal the Imperial Webway Gate, Guide the Astronomican, The Emperor's Tarot, and generally just holding back the worst depridations of Chaos.

I mean in the Collected Visions account when the Emperor was just protecting the Imperial section of the Webway he was so laboured with the effort, and could hardly talk with the amount of concentration he needed. After the Horus Heresy he is doing a lot more than just Sealing the Imperial Webway.


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I simply can't beleive that the Emperor could reach across the galaxy froom Terra, and restore a dead follower to life (a follower whose body as far more broken than his own as she was brutally hacked to peices by orks before she was recovered by her sisters). He not only restored her form but took her soul from the warp and gave it back to her... that can't be simple. You honestly think he can do that but can't repair his own body? Plus, I made another post in a different thread about how common bionics are in the 41st millenium. Techpreists replace people's brains and organs regularly and the lives of even regular humans span hunreds of years... couple the strength of this universe's sci-fi bionic medicine and the Emperor undaunted Psychic power and tell me he can't just will himself off that golden throne and back into the scene if he so chose.

the only reason he sits there is by choice... his heart is utterly broken and he will probably never get up. But not becouse he can't... there simply isn't anything to account for that.
Theres a massive bit of speculation there me thinks

Firstly who said the Emperor directly actually revived the saint? There are theories bumping around that faithful subjects can actually 'tap into' the Emperor's power simply by having strong enough faith. The Emperor may not have 'consciously' revived her at all.

Secondly I doubt her injuries were more extreme than the Emperor's were. Theres a list of the injuries in the collected Visions, not only that but he was injured mentally and spiritually aswell.

The Fluff we have states that the Emperor was forced to take to the Golden Throne, and cannot simply revive himself as you postulate. So im going with that



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post #36 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-29-09, 06:17 AM
 
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Would you agree with me on the above quote from my previous post though?
Sort of. I hate sounding so wishy-washy but I think there has to be a distinction between the Chaos Gods and the warp. The fluff throws around words like "warpstuff" and uses it in context of being the literal flesh of Deamon Princes. There is absolutely zero consistancy on the lore regarding what the warp actually his; just bits and scattered phrases here and there about how it affects its denizens and the material world.

The warp - as I see it - is like a photo negative of the material universe. Every person casts a relfection in that negative, a relfection comprised of their thoughts, and emotions - things that do not exist in the material universe. Now, in the warp, there is absolutely nothing without something in the material universe to be a reflection of. So in a galaxy of infinately huge numbers of inhabitants, the mass numbers of people casting, for lack of a better word; bad reflections, they begin to pool in the warp. When ten billion people think, feel, or emote such things as deceit, scheming, jealously, and revenge, eventually all those relfections in the warp take shape or form and gain a mental presence of their own.

At this point, for me, they cease to be warp enteties or the stuff of the warp itself, and literally become deamons. As time goes on, ots of deamons fade in or out of the warp, and with the galaxy in the state its currently in, the deamons are not few in number. The deamons who are made of the largest pool of reflections make the largest, or strongest deamons and gain power or fuel for every person that contributes to their respective pool. After this plays out for say, 41 millienia, you get a pretty well established pecking order in the warp. You've got the most powerful deamons who make of the 4 largest groups of "sins" if you will - the four Chaos Gods. And the chaos demigods, then named greater deamons, then greater deamons, and so on down the list. The 4 chaos gods abviously stand heads aboe the rest for the sake of metaphor, but that's not the focus here.

For my part, a Chaos God is just a supremely powerful deamon, known in and outside the warp, that is aware of itself, and seeks to preserve itself by seeding thoughts of death, murder, betrayal, and what not in the material universe to feed upon.

So I guess my answer is no, I think they are very much comparable to the Emperor, they all have a psychic presence and try to work their will in the material world through their followers to grow in powerthemselves... gifting a follower with a potion of their own power to aid them in working their will is realy just like investing on their part, becouse they always come out on top.

The Chaos Gods to me are just powerful deamons and powerful Psykers... collectively I rank them bellow the Emperor becouse it all makes sense to me that way and when you peice all the fluff together it makes a more complete picture for me.


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Im not talking about who can muster the most troops or who can conquer the most space. But who actually dominants the galaxy? The Imperium may control the largest area of consistent space, and posess the largest armed forces. But that is nothing. The only human that ever posed a threat to Chaos was the Emperor, and he is now incapable of continuing his war against Chaos. The Chaos Gods are free to continue the Great Game unhindered, with no major threat to their dominance. Where as the Imperium on the other hand is crumbling from within and faces constant wars on its borders. Tell me who triumphed in the Horus Heresy out of Horus and the Emperor? The Emperor. But who triumped out of The Emperor and the Chaos Gods? the Chaos Gods. The Imperium poses no threat at all to the Chaos Gods, the Imperium if anything actually benefits Chaos.
Than by that notion the Tyranids and Orks pose the greatest threat to both the Imperium and Chaos, sinse they don't kill out of malice or hate, but simply becouse they are programed to do so, and sinse Nids have no, photo-negative if you will, they will devour the galaxy and kill everyone- thusly cutting off the supply of power to the chaos gods and killing them as well.

The Imperium is rife with internal struggle, yes, but orders such as the Ordo Hereticus, and Ordo Malleus, make definative strides against Chaos... then you have to factor in the Eldar, constantly contesting the will of the chaos Gods, and all the other forces battling... Chaos and the Imperium are not the only two fighters in the field, and even if they were... I feel confident that the Imperium would emerge the victor for a healthy slew of reasons.


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Also remember to differentiate between the goals and purposes of the Chaos Followers and the Chaos Gods themselves.
True. the Chaos Gods squable amongst themselves and eat away at each others power, making it unstable and keeping them from uniting (except in certain instances) and mustering an effective threat to the Imperium. The threat of chaos is not its soldiers or deamons, though they are definately not to be ignored, but they lure it has to the people of the galaxy and its potential to corrupt them.


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Yes i didn't mean suffer physically (because obviously his physical self is little more than a skeleton) but mentally and spiritually.
Its not necessarily because of the loss of his favourite son, but more due to the constant exhaustion and labour of having to seal the Imperial Webway Gate, Guide the Astronomican, The Emperor's Tarot, and generally just holding back the worst depridations of Chaos.
I mean in the Collected Visions account when the Emperor was just protecting the Imperial section of the Webway he was so laboured with the effort, and could hardly talk with the amount of concentration he needed. After the Horus Heresy he is doing a lot more than just Sealing the Imperial Webway.
It was clear that the Emperor was mapping out the webway for his own use - I speculate for use as an alternative for warp travel, to help keep the vessels of the Imperium safer in travel. And a large portion was not only mapped out, but kept under Imperial control- garrisoned by the Sisters of Silence and various other Imperial forces.

during the HH, the sisters and other imperial forces in the webway were defated, and malcador was killed by the throne (I don't think becouse he couldn't keep the door closed, but more becouse of what was behind it at that time).

Conversely, the Emperor would arguable have to struggle very little to keep it shut- so to speak. I still speculate that the Emperor remains wher ehe is for no reason other than his broken heart and lack of faith in his own empire. But that is a point I will never be able to fully explain, nor are we likely to come to terms over it sinse there is no conccrete fluff to state one way or another.

Again, not solid case can be made either way, just how one side strikes me a much more logical. It is never stated that the Emperor litteraly offered her a hand and helped her up, but the implication is definately there. faith is a fairly direct term.

Also, we know that the Emperor is still active sinse he has summoned people to him to offer advice or perhaps issue secret orders. His own geneseed being present in the Grey Knights (who have never lost a brother to the taint of chaos) adds more speculation that sinse they have never fallen to chaos, and they are just men gifted with his geneseed, he, as the Emperor and the mold from which they are cast, is likely completely imune to much of Chaos - possibly why the Gods fear or wish to stop or combat him.

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post #37 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-29-09, 03:54 PM
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Argh, double post wall of text crits for 13.6k damage!

Your eyes die.

Sorry you may want to go back and re-edit that last one!

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #38 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-29-09, 08:20 PM
 
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Argh, double post wall of text crits for 13.6k damage!

Your eyes die.

Sorry you may want to go back and re-edit that last one!
O.o sorry, it was late and I was low on caffine
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post #39 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-30-09, 02:00 PM
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I'll state a couple of things here.

I already stated that each codex is showing you only its side of the story. And none of them match... to take one literally is just acting on favoritism.
The the fact that the Chaos gods all worked together to abduct the incubant primarchs and scatter the them about the galaxy shows that they had reason to fear them. Why would the collective might of 4 chaos gods be frightened by 20 infants? Sounds like something none of the codexes touched on.
They didnt fear them, they Easily set up the futur downfall of the Emperors Plans from day 1. Emperor lost befor it began, go Chaos Gods.

Also, the Emperor, who is, as you described, dying on the golden throne, has on occasion, from across the galaxy, given his followers power, sheilded them from enemy fire, and exempted them from death with nothing more than his thoughts (again from across the galaxy).
Each Chaos God has given there followers a Army of Deamons in a blink of an eye, Deamonic Gifts bestowed by them make warriors immortal, superstrong, able to withstand bullets, rain fire, ect. Not impress with the Emperor so far.

St. Katherine was raised from the dead by the Emperor, and its not unlikely that similar things have happened before.
Kharn the Betrayer was raised from the dead twice by Khorn and Lucious was raised by Slannesh and is nor Imoortal. Still not Impressed.

Also remember that the Emperor is dead ONLY in body. He is very much alive, and able to work his will without the need of power armor or bolter. When Goge Vandire was ruining his Imperium, the Emperor summoned Alicia Dominica to him, and ordered her to kill him, and then founded the Ordo hereticus... all this was in M36... that's six thousand years after his battle with horus and after his internment to the golden throne. (story can be found on page 4 of the witch hunters codex)I remeber a story where the Emperors pride and joy Horus was turned by the Chaos Gods to ruin the Emperors Golden Crusade and put his ass in the Golden throne to begin with. Chaos Gods 1 Big E 0.

Horus was no match for the Emperor prior to his possession, and even when granted their combined powers, he was only able to fight his father becouse the Emperor could not bring himself to - and I quote "summon his full strength against his favored son". The momment the Emperor realized Horus was truly lost, even with a broken body, Horus lost... the very instant that the Emperor took the fight serriously, the Chaos dogs "Fled their mortal pawn and recoiled in terror for fear of being killed themselves".That depends on your favortism, SM Books say Big E was stronger for sure and abolish Horus after a while, CSM say Horus showed weakness at the last second to his father and allowed the Emp to abolish him. There is no cut and dry view. All I got to say is if the Big E was so tough then why is he a rotting Corpse now after the Fight? Answere that!

All four chaos gods fused in power with the Emperor's greatest son fear death by him becouse they are his better? I think not.
Whats this crap of the Gods fusing, this aint DBZ. The Gods gave their Bleesings, mere Blessings and nothing more to Horus.

I can only imagine that the Emperor resides on the throne only becouse he has no desire to live among men... they have dissapointed him utterly and his favored son betrayed him to the Gods of Chaos. He interferes only when a servant is absolutely faithful, and that is rare... but he is very much alive, and no less powerful becuse his body is dead. (honestly... do you realy think the Emperor couldn't get up if he wanted? He can raise St. Katherine from the grave but not himself? all the science of bio-implants and servo arms and organs can't repair his body... please...)I think the Emperor is on the Throne cause hes alm ost dead against the battle with Chaos. Thats what all the Fluff says. All the FLUFF. And no he couldnt get off the Throne cause hes all rotting Carcass now and would fully be dead. His body is Gone and the Throne Anchores his Spirit, he requires the Souls of a 1000 Psykers a day just to stay afloat.
Fluff wise I think The point of the Game is Chaos and Xeno forces are whipping mankinds ass. Thats the dark grim futur where there is only war. If there was Justice the Soul Drinkers would kill Lysander and his weak IF company that worship the weak Imperium instead of being hunted down and captured after saving the Imperium from a strong Necron Tomb World and Fleet. (Hell Forge BL Book)

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post #40 of 65 (permalink) Old 10-14-09, 08:16 PM
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Discounting Ahriman

I know this is probably a moot point by now, but I think that people seem to dismiss Ahriman as one of the most potent of the 40K psykers. I seem to remember an article titled "Heroes and Villains of the 40K universe" in WD yonks ago that mentioned that the guardians of the black library, the very nexus of the Eldars knowledge and research on chaos, crap themselves at the thought of Ahriman gaining entry. I mean the Eldar aren't exactly the most powerful force in the universe anymore but surely if Ahriman wasn't really a threat, they would be able to take care of him quite handily?
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