the most powerful psykers? - Page 3 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Fluff Discuss GW background material here. All those bits in the Codex that aren't stat blocks or special rules. Post your custom character/chapter/army background in our Homebrew Fluff subforum!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-27-09, 05:49 PM
Senior Member
 
Sethis's Avatar
Sethis's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Alston, Cumbria
Posts: 4,190
Reputation: 58
Default

Eldrad is not dead, his soul is currently struggling for control of the Blackstone Fortress with it's daemonic center. He still has active spirit stones, and thus can be interred in Wraithguard/Wraithlord. Eventually he'll win the battle of wills to control blackstone and be reclaimed by Ulthwés infinity circuit.

Eldar don't die, they turn into circuit boards!

As a by-the-way, no-one we have ever heard of has faced Eldrad in a direct confrontation. This means that if anyone has managed it, they've lost. Any speculation about "Oh, he can see the future but can't fight worth a damn" has absolutely zero basis in fact. It's like saying "Oh, that nuke can't do very much, it's just a boring grey tube".

"Also yea he started the war of Armaggedon but is it really that hard to trick a ork into attacking a world ?"

Name anyone else who has ever managed it?

"Also how do Magnus and Ahirman not have control, is it just because they fell to chaos."

Well Magnus couldn't see his own future well enough to change it (he failed to stop the Horus Heresy, and became a demon prince, and was unable to save Prospero) and the only major spell Ahriman cast went catastrophically wrong, with totally unintended effects. Sounds a bit poor to me.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
Sethis is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-27-09, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
MontytheMighty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,764
Reputation: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiftofChaos1234 View Post
quoted from lexicanum:
"there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half to summoning a legion of Greater Daemons."
so if lexicanum is to be trusted, I guess the inquisition is somehow able to control and train alpha plus psykers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
Eldrad is not dead, his soul is currently struggling for control of the Blackstone Fortress with it's daemonic center. He still has active spirit stones, and thus can be interred in Wraithguard/Wraithlord. Eventually he'll win the battle of wills to control blackstone and be reclaimed by Ulthwés infinity circuit.
I like that version, but how do you reconcile the stuff that says his soul was torn to shreds by Slaanesh
MontytheMighty is offline  
post #23 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-27-09, 07:04 PM
Senior Member
 
Sethis's Avatar
Sethis's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Alston, Cumbria
Posts: 4,190
Reputation: 58
Default

Where does it say that? Eldar codex says:

"Eldrad entered the Blackstone Fortress's psychic matrix and pitted his spirit against it's corrupted heart, in that instant his mortal body was gone, and all but a handful of his spirit stones became lifeless and dull... Q'sandria believes that the Farseer can survive his unending struggle within the heart of the Chaos fleet" p.51

Nothing about Slaanesh being involved at all. For Slaanesh to claim his soul ,every single one of his spirit stones would have to be destroyed. As it stands, a handful of them still function.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
Sethis is offline  
 
post #24 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-27-09, 07:13 PM
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 113
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsmouth View Post
There's a lot about the nature of psykers that is unclear. What exactly are Dark Eldar Psykers like, where do the old ones fall into this and does the Hive Mind qualify in the semantics of the question? Does the nature of the Emperor as a psyker parallel the Chaos gods enough to disqualify them. I believe that the Emperor is more powerful than anyone of them and even rivals them combined.
Honestly, most of these debates can be rebutted by reading the various codexes.

For any player who owns both the CSM and SM Codexes, its interesting to see the differing perspectives. Bot Codexes tell the tale of the Horus Heresy, but tell it very differently.

The CSM codex paints Horus as being a rivel to the Emperor in every way, and with his gifts from the Chaos Gods he was the Emperor's better. They describe the Emperor as having made many mistakes and besting Horus only by chance of Horus hesitating and the Emperor taking advantage of the window of opportunity.

In the SM Codex, it tells the stryo differently. It makes it very clear that the Emperor was in every way superior to Horus (at his peak, and while possessed of all for Chaos Gods). There is a passage that describes the momment when the Emperor defeated Horus, I can't quote becouse my codex isn't handy atm, but it said something like - "The Emperor gathered all his might and obliterated Horus from the mortal plane, all for chaos gods recoiled in terror and fled their mortal pawn for fear of dying themselves".

That's a strong statement, and says a lot about both sides.

Obviously the codexes are meant to tell two sides of the same story, and while one may be more 'correct' than the other, I am disinclined to beleive either one.

However, what BOTH codexes make very clear, is that the Chaos Gods... collectively, feared not just the Emperor, but his clone sons and what they were capable of.

I would definately rank all for Chaos Gods as below the Emperor in psychic might, collectively. I personally don't think its far fetched to say that they may rank below even the primarchs, but more likely, they are probably equal on many levels, and due to the primarchs weaknesses, thay are able to control or manipulate them.

Malcador is sort of a dead issue sinse he's dead, but he was the only person in the Imperium that the Emperor placed no restrictions upon for use of psychic powers (which he did not want Magnus using - also a telling statement).

The Eldar are definately a strong psychic force (Slaanesh and what not) and could definately produce rivals to any Imperial psyker, but the Eldar fluff is full of inconsistancies.

Eldrad is definately a powerful psyker, and could probably take even the most accomplished of current Imperial and Chaos psykers. But he is also the Eldar's premier Psyker.

I would imagine that Tigurius and Mephiston are next, and then Arhiman.

Tigurius, contacting the Hive mind means a lot, and in terms of his profile, I find it hard to beleive Tigurius would loose in a duel against Ahriman.
Prince Endymion is offline  
post #25 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-27-09, 08:43 PM
Senior Member
 
killmaimburn's Avatar
killmaimburn's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 854
Reputation: 1
Default

Fluffwise Ahriman should be the greatest non-primarch psyker among space marines. By profiles, he can turn tigurius into a spawn at 6" or just blast him into oblivion at 24" with bolts of change. In straight melee, he has better WS, Saves, Attacks, and Initiative. The main issue here, however, is that psyker's rules consistently fail to match up to fluff, in much the same way as space marines are not as super special epic awesome as they are described as being.

killmaimburn is offline  
post #26 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-27-09, 11:10 PM
Bane of Empires
 
Child-of-the-Emperor's Avatar
Child-of-the-Emperor's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 5,131
Reputation: 19
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
Power means nothing without control.

Magnus had no control. (See what happened to him?)

Ahriman had no control. (See what happened to the 1k Sons?)

Rogue Psykers have no control. (Being conduits, rather than self contained individuals)

Eldrad has control. (Of most of the galaxy )

Being able to destroy a planet at will is nothing compared to the power to alter the future so that an individual/race never existed. You would never have a "1v1 Psychic Duel" with Eldrad, because he would already have manipulated you into being possessed by Chaos/dying on another battlefield/being in another part of the galaxy.
What you on about?! Magnus and Ahriman do have control... Just because they practise Sorcery rather than more stable methods of psychic powers doesnt mean they have no control. In fact its known that Sorcery is much more potent and powerful than any other form of Psychic abilites.

Aside from that Magnus is a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch. Tzeentch is the Lord of Fate, Puppet Master of the Galaxy, the Great Schemer. Tzeentch's Oracle knows the Future and Tzeentch himself Knows ALL of the Past and Present and all of the possible Futures. Magnus is one of Tzeentch's most powerful disciples... he outranks Eldrad by miles.

Read the Eye of Terror Codex aswell.. under "War in the Webway" - its clear that Eldrad greatly fears Ahriman as a Psyker.

And also aside from that Eldrad is now 'dead'... so

And also I think you over-estimate his abilities to an extent. Yes he is a fantastic Farseer, and has saved his race and averted disaster countless times. But he cannot see or know all of the possible futures, his abilities in Farseeing arn't certain, infact no way near it. I mean if Tzeentch himself cannot know ALL possible futures, then for certain Eldrad, a mere Eldar can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post

As a by-the-way, no-one we have ever heard of has faced Eldrad in a direct confrontation.
Abaddon has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
"Also yea he started the war of Armaggedon but is it really that hard to trick a ork into attacking a world ?"

Name anyone else who has ever managed it?
Just because no one has in the Fluff doesn't mean it hasn't happened. In fact its common knowledge that Orks are easily manipulated. The Chaos Forces used Orks in the 13th Black Crusade to attack Imperial positions simply by bribing them with weaponary.... Its not hard to trick an Ork!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
Well Magnus couldn't see his own future well enough to change it (he failed to stop the Horus Heresy, and became a demon prince, and was unable to save Prospero) and the only major spell Ahriman cast went catastrophically wrong, with totally unintended effects. Sounds a bit poor to me.
Oh dear... - Tzeentch himself prevented Magnus from seeing his own future in order to gain Magnus as a pawn. Also you say 'Became a Daemon Prince' as if thats a bad thing.. If anything becoming a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch has just increased his psychic abilites several times over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Endymion View Post
I would definately rank all for Chaos Gods as below the Emperor in psychic might, collectively. I personally don't think its far fetched to say that they may rank below even the primarchs, but more likely, they are probably equal on many levels, and due to the primarchs weaknesses, thay are able to control or manipulate them.
I couldn't disagree more

It is said that the Emperor's existence is one of constant agony (and has been for 10,000 years) as he struggles to hold back the tide of Chaos. A task which he is slowly but surely failing in. With every passing generation, as humanity slowly evolves to its 'Psychic Potential' the threat of Chaos grows ever stronger. More Psykers appear every generation, Humanities impact on the warp grows and more and more humans fall to Chaos Worship.

If you havn't done so already check the Chaos Daemons Codex out. To my knowledge the best and largest source of information on the Chaos Gods. It portrays the Emperor as a mere nuisance to the Warp Gods - one of several occasions when the Chaos Gods stop warring amongst themselves to thwart an annoyance. The Chaos Gods merely by whispering to Horus started the wars of the Horus Heresy and shattered the Emperors Body and his Imperium. As soon as Horus was damned they simply began warring amongst themselves again, and the Great Game continued.

The Emperor's Will is the only thing that is preventing Chaos from completley consuming the galaxy - and the Warp and the Material Plane intermingling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist View Post
Of the humans, it is well established fluff that Malcador was second in strength only to the Emperor, quite a ways ahead of Magnus.
Has it ever actually stated this anywhere though? A way in my opinion to compare the abilities of Magnus and Malcador is to look at the Golden Throne. The Emperor intended to sit Magnus on the Golden Throne to seal the Imperial Webway Gate, after the Red Cyclops' Sorcerous warning broke the complex seals on the Psychic Runes surrounding the Golden Throne. After Magnus pledged himself to Tzeentch following the Burning of Prospero this was no longer possible - so the Emperor had to settle to temporarily task Malcador with taking to the Golden Throne even though he knew Malcador would perish. The fact that the Emperor intended to initially have Magnus the Red take to the Golden Throne in my opinion proves that Magnus' ability were more potent than Malcadors.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).

Last edited by Child-of-the-Emperor; 09-27-09 at 11:42 PM.
Child-of-the-Emperor is offline  
post #27 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-28-09, 12:25 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 113
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
I couldn't disagree more

It is said that the Emperor's existence is one of constant agony (and has been for 10,000 years) as he struggles to hold back the tide of Chaos. A task which he is slowly but surely failing in. With every passing generation, as humanity slowly evolves to its 'Psychic Potential' the threat of Chaos grows ever stronger. More Psykers appear every generation, Humanities impact on the warp grows and more and more humans fall to Chaos Worship.

If you havn't done so already check the Chaos Daemons Codex out. To my knowledge the best and largest source of information on the Chaos Gods. It portrays the Emperor as a mere nuisance to the Warp Gods - one of several occasions when the Chaos Gods stop warring amongst themselves to thwart an annoyance. The Chaos Gods merely by whispering to Horus started the wars of the Horus Heresy and shattered the Emperors Body and his Imperium. As soon as Horus was damned they simply began warring amongst themselves again, and the Great Game continued.

The Emperor's Will is the only thing that is preventing Chaos from completley consuming the galaxy - and the Warp and the Material Plane intermingling.

I'll state a couple of things here.

I already stated that each codex is showing you only its side of the story. And none of them match... to take one literally is just acting on favoritism.
The the fact that the Chaos gods all worked together to abduct the incubant primarchs and scatter the them about the galaxy shows that they had reason to fear them. Why would the collective might of 4 chaos gods be frightened by 20 infants? Sounds like something none of the codexes touched on.

Also, the Emperor, who is, as you described, dying on the golden throne, has on occasion, from across the galaxy, given his followers power, sheilded them from enemy fire, and exempted them from death with nothing more than his thoughts (again from across the galaxy).

St. Katherine was raised from the dead by the Emperor, and its not unlikely that similar things have happened before.

Also remember that the Emperor is dead ONLY in body. He is very much alive, and able to work his will without the need of power armor or bolter. When Goge Vandire was ruining his Imperium, the Emperor summoned Alicia Dominica to him, and ordered her to kill him, and then founded the Ordo hereticus... all this was in M36... that's six thousand years after his battle with horus and after his internment to the golden throne. (story can be found on page 4 of the witch hunters codex)

Horus was no match for the Emperor prior to his possession, and even when granted their combined powers, he was only able to fight his father becouse the Emperor could not bring himself to - and I quote "summon his full strength against his favored son". The momment the Emperor realized Horus was truly lost, even with a broken body, Horus lost... the very instant that the Emperor took the fight serriously, the Chaos dogs "Fled their mortal pawn and recoiled in terror for fear of being killed themselves".

All four chaos gods fused in power with the Emperor's greatest son fear death by him becouse they are his better? I think not.

I can only imagine that the Emperor resides on the throne only becouse he has no desire to live among men... they have dissapointed him utterly and his favored son betrayed him to the Gods of Chaos. He interferes only when a servant is absolutely faithful, and that is rare... but he is very much alive, and no less powerful becuse his body is dead. (honestly... do you realy think the Emperor couldn't get up if he wanted? He can raise St. Katherine from the grave but not himself? all the science of bio-implants and servo arms and organs can't repair his body... please...)
Prince Endymion is offline  
post #28 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-28-09, 12:35 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 113
Default

Also, another note back on topic - I have to revise my earlier list to this new one:

Emperor
The Chaos Gods
Malcador <---> Magnus (really up in the air here)
Eldrad (or equivilant in eldar farseers)
Grey Knight Terminators and the Grand Master
Tigurius <---> Mephiston <---> Ahriman (again, all hazy)


reason for my change is found on page 7 of the deamonhunters codex: paragraph 2 line 10. I'll sum it up by saying that the regular grey knights are ALL psykers and ae screened to include only the best. it also says that the best of them are the equal to the mighiest Librarians of the Adeptus Astartes (Tigurius, Mephiston, etc). It then goes on to say that among these grey knights there are those who excell and are made Terminators - obvious enough there... and from there they can be granted the rank of Grand Master, which it quotes as being "truly the greatest of the Emperor's servants" that statement seems to include even the Primarchs, as it is generally assumed that the Grey Knights are molded from the Emperor's own genetic material (geneseed).
Prince Endymion is offline  
post #29 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-28-09, 02:44 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
MontytheMighty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,764
Reputation: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
Where does it say that? Eldar codex says:
Nothing about Slaanesh being involved at all. For Slaanesh to claim his soul , every single one of his spirit stones would have to be destroyed. As it stands, a handful of them still function.
I was reading Lexicanum, the sources listed were

* Fulgrim by Graham McNeill, Black Library, 2007.
* Heroes and Villains of the 41st Millennium: Eldrad Ulthran, Farseer of Ulthw&#233; by Phil Kelly, White Dwarf 286.
* Codex: Eldar (4th Edition), Codex: Eldar (3rd Edition)


Quote:
During the Thirteenth Black Crusade, the Eldar of Ulthw&#233; fought against the forces of Chaos, and Eldrad was at the forefront, knowing he would not live to see the end of the conflict. Eldrad attempted to retake a Blackstone Fortress, but the fortress was already occupied by Slaanesh, the Great Enemy. As Eldrad realised his folly, his soul was devoured, and the greatest Farseer of the Eldar was lost, however a handfull of waystones he had created still remained active causing some Eldar to believe that he's still alive but trapped in the warp.
I myself prefer what you cited
MontytheMighty is offline  
post #30 of 65 (permalink) Old 09-28-09, 10:13 AM
Bane of Empires
 
Child-of-the-Emperor's Avatar
Child-of-the-Emperor's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 5,131
Reputation: 19
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Endymion View Post
I'll state a couple of things here.

I already stated that each codex is showing you only its side of the story. And none of them match... to take one literally is just acting on favoritism.
I did say thats how its portrayed in the codex, but I should have made it more clear - my bad

However I would take the Chaos Daemons Codex over the Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines anyday when it comes to fluff and background material on the Chaos Gods (Call it favouritism if you will!). For the obvious reasons aswell as the fact that there is 10+ Pages of decent in-depth fluff on the Chaos Gods whereas there is a few words in the Space Marine Codex!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Endymion View Post
The the fact that the Chaos gods all worked together to abduct the incubant primarchs and scatter the them about the galaxy shows that they had reason to fear them. Why would the collective might of 4 chaos gods be frightened by 20 infants? Sounds like something none of the codexes touched on.
I would just like to point out here that its never been explicity stated that it was the Chaos Gods that actually 'abducted' the Primarchs, although it seems the most logical explanation.

Horus' Vision in the Horus Heresy Novels states that the Chaos Gods 'abducted' the Primarchs to get back at the Emperor who stole some of there power and who was using it to slowly destroy/weaken their Realm.

Another logical explanation could be that in 'abducting' the Primarchs they marked them with taint which later enabled the whispers of Chaos to corrupt them and therefore destroy the young Imperium.

Don't just assume the Chaos Gods did it because they feared the Primarchs, there are several other logical explanations to explore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Endymion View Post
Also, the Emperor, who is, as you described, dying on the golden throne, has on occasion, from across the galaxy, given his followers power, sheilded them from enemy fire, and exempted them from death with nothing more than his thoughts (again from across the galaxy).

St. Katherine was raised from the dead by the Emperor, and its not unlikely that similar things have happened before.
Yes, I was not doubting the Emperor's abilities at all. But in the 'current' environment in M41, tell me, who is it that is 'winning'? The 'current' state of affairs is arguably the most favourable outcome for Chaos, there is no major threat to their dominance and they are being fed and empowered by the constant Change, Despairs, Bloodshed, Excess of the Galaxy. Where as the Imperium is slowly but surely crumbling, and the Emperor is in a state of constant agony as he attempts to protect his corrupt and vile regime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Endymion View Post
Also remember that the Emperor is dead ONLY in body. He is very much alive, and able to work his will without the need of power armor or bolter. When Goge Vandire was ruining his Imperium, the Emperor summoned Alicia Dominica to him, and ordered her to kill him, and then founded the Ordo hereticus... all this was in M36... that's six thousand years after his battle with horus and after his internment to the golden throne. (story can be found on page 4 of the witch hunters codex)
Yes I know the story very well And again I was not doubting the Emperor's abilities at all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Endymion View Post
All four chaos gods fused in power with the Emperor's greatest son fear death by him becouse they are his better? I think not.
Again i'll pull you back to my original point of not being able to class the Chaos Gods as 'psykers' and not really being able to compare their power to the Emperors. The Chaos Gods are complete Warp entities, for the most part they don't even care about the Material Galaxy. They realised that the Emperor intended to weaken them through his various schemes so they temporarily united to prevent him from doing so. All they did was corrupt Horus and infuse and bless him with some power, and look at the results; The Emperor's body shattered, his sons turned against him and Humanity doomed to a slow death.

Its not because the Emperor is more powerful or better than the Chaos Gods, its because he possessed the means by which to weaken Chaos. Deprive the Gods of their primary power source; Humanity.

So its not that the Emperor is more powerful, its just that he realised their weakness, & when he tried to exploit it the Chaos Gods engineered the Horus Heresy to stop him... and it worked!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Endymion View Post
I can only imagine that the Emperor resides on the throne only becouse he has no desire to live among men... they have dissapointed him utterly and his favored son betrayed him to the Gods of Chaos. He interferes only when a servant is absolutely faithful, and that is rare... but he is very much alive, and no less powerful becuse his body is dead. (honestly... do you realy think the Emperor couldn't get up if he wanted? He can raise St. Katherine from the grave but not himself? all the science of bio-implants and servo arms and organs can't repair his body... please...)
He himself stated that he would never walk amongst Mortals anymore, that his body was too shattered, he was forced to take to the Throne because Horus raped him and he exhausted and almost killed himself using the amount of power he used to utterly destory Horus' soul. (See the account in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions)

You think the only reason he is on the Throne is because he has no desire to live amongst men? Why is he choosing a life of constant and terrible agony then to protect Men who too often turn from his light?

No, The Emperor does not have a choice. He is forced to sit upon the Golden Throne. Not only that but on the Golden Throne he is sealing the Imperial Webway Gate and guiding the Astronomican.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).

Last edited by Child-of-the-Emperor; 09-28-09 at 10:18 AM.
Child-of-the-Emperor is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Fluff

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome