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post #81 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-31-14, 05:02 PM
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Don't know how anybody could pick Horus, we've seen next to nothing of him in combat at all, never mind against another primarchs.
Perhaps not, but we are aware that several Primarchs (and various other Space Marines) rated Horus as one of the most capable fighters. Their opinion should count for a lot.



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post #82 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-31-14, 05:17 PM
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Their opinion should count for a lot.
It does, but nowhere near the same as actually seeing the primarchs go against each other. Which is one thing he has yet to do.
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post #83 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-31-14, 06:41 PM
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Horus's strengths lied in his ability to inspire, and most importantly in leading. Horus was likely an average combatant in pure martial ability, however he likely melded his martial ability with that of his tactics and strategy. Furthermore Horus's actual combat abilities were likely very overrated due to the fact that he had never fought another primarch to the death, and from the sheer respect others had for him. This in turn caused Horus to be perceived by the common man as far superior then he actual was due to his charisma inflating his image, and due to the other primarchs never truly fighting with him during sparing.

Horus held the greatest advantage in sparring with his brothers, which is the only indicator that anyone had to go off of to gauge which was best in martial ability. Sparring is not about being vicious, brutal, and or utilizing all of ones strengths as well as skill sets. Curze would have been handicapped during sparring as would Angron, Vulkan, Corax, Magnus, and many other primarchs. None of the prior mentioned primarchs would be able to fully capitalize on their strengths during a sparring match, for if they did it would no longer be a sparring match and would shift to a fight to the death.

Horus's strengths lied in his versatility as well as his extreme charisma, he was average in tactics, average in strategy, average in martial combat, average in sheer strength, physical resilience, psychic powers, and was average in most sectors of intelligence. For those of you who do not know there are many different types of intelligence, of which just a few include naturalist intelligence, musical intelligence, logical intelligence, existential intelligence, interpersonal intelligence, kinesthetic intelligence, linguistic intelligence, intra-personal intelligence, spatial intelligence, and so on. Horus excelled in Interpersonal intelligence, this is why he was able to read others so well as well as why he could inspire so many to follow him. Contrastingly Angron was gifted in kinesthetic intelligence, and average in other sectors of intelligence.

Ultimately Horus is the epitome of the average primarch, yet it is his interpersonal intelligence that allows him to leverage his other average intelligence sectors in a very effective manner to appear far greater than he actually is.
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post #84 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-31-14, 07:49 PM
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Horus held the greatest advantage in sparring with his brothers, which is the only indicator that anyone had to go off of to gauge which was best in martial ability. Sparring is not about being vicious, brutal, and or utilizing all of ones strengths as well as skill sets. Curze would have been handicapped during sparring as would Angron, Vulkan, Corax, Magnus, and many other primarchs. None of the prior mentioned primarchs would be able to fully capitalize on their strengths during a sparring match, for if they did it would no longer be a sparring match and would shift to a fight to the death.
So all the others would have been handicapped while sparring him but he wouldn't have had the same restrictions? Riiiiiiight. Also, being vicious and brutal has absolutely nothing to do with martial competence. And while not a definite way of proving something, sparring can indeed give you a very good idea of how capable someone is in a fight. I do martial arts and I spar with a lot of guys. We rarely go full out but, even when holding back, I can get a pretty good idea of who would actually be able to kick my ass when push comes to shove.

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Horus's strengths lied in his versatility as well as his extreme charisma, he was average in tactics, average in strategy, average in martial combat, average in sheer strength, physical resilience, psychic powers, and was average in most sectors of intelligence.
Any proof to back up these claims about his apparent "average" abilities? He was literally regarded by pretty much all his brothers as one of, if not the best tactician amongst the primarchs, had arguably the best martial record and led arguably the most successful legion during the crusade. He did that by being average at tactics, strategy and martial ability?

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Ultimately Horus is the epitome of the average primarch, yet it is his interpersonal intelligence that allows him to leverage his other average intelligence sectors in a very effective manner to appear far greater than he actually is.
Again, pretty much all the fluff we have about Horus contradicts what you've said in your post, with the exception of him being very charismatic.

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post #85 of 121 (permalink) Old 01-31-14, 08:03 PM
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So all the others would have been handicapped while sparring him but he wouldn't have had the same restrictions? Riiiiiiight. Also, being vicious and brutal has absolutely nothing to do with martial competence. And while not a definite way of proving something, sparring can indeed give you a very good idea of how capable someone is in a fight. I do martial arts and I spar with a lot of guys. We rarely go full out but, even when holding back, I can get a pretty good idea of who would actually be able to kick my ass when push comes to shove.



Any proof to back up these claims about his apparent "average" abilities? He was literally regarded by pretty much all his brothers as one of, if not the best tactician amongst the primarchs, had arguably the best martial record and led arguably the most successful legion during the crusade. He did that by being average at tactics, strategy and martial ability?



Again, pretty much all the fluff we have about Horus contradicts what you've said in your post, with the exception of him being very charismatic.
Horus is the epitome of average in relation to the primarchs, he has never displayed any exceptional tactics, and his strategies for the heresy were straight forward and average in their effect. He has been given featless accolades, his war record in part is due to him being found first and thus having first entry to the crusade market.

So I ask you show me displays from the fluff that actually show concrete examples of his above average tactics, strategies, martial combat ability, physical advantages, psychic abilities. The only accolades he has are from the view points of a standard human, of which as prior stated his charisma causes others to view him greater then he is and thus inflates his reputation. All of them primarchs that have ever spoken about him praise him for his leadership, being a good general, and not for anything else. Furthermore all of the accolades assigned to him as being "The best of the primarchs" has never been backed up by any concrete examples, it is simply just praise due to his crushing charisma that makes near anyone love him.

Horus is average
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post #86 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-01-14, 01:21 PM
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So I ask you show me displays from the fluff that actually show concrete examples of his above average tactics, strategies, martial combat ability, physical advantages, psychic abilities.
I would ask you to show us displays that show concrete examples which demonstrate the post-human tactical or strategic abilities of any of the Primarchs. There may be a couple of examples within the lore but mostly we are just informed of their prowess rather than actually shown it. For example, even the The Lion's much lauded success on Diamat was an obvious strategic move to make given the information he was privy to. We even see Primarchs making (seemingly obvious) strategic errors such as Ferrus Manus refusing to wait for reinforcements (against the advise of Corax & Vulkan) before and during the assault of Isstvan V.

My point is that, for the writers, masterful (Primarch-level) strategic or tactical minutiae is next-to-impossible to portray because anything they explain in detail is automatically comprehended by us as the readers. Thus in order to illustrate the Primarchs' superhuman ability they have to refrain from properly illustrating their strategy. A good example of this is Alpharius' clearing of the Kayvas Belt, Fear to Tread doesn't actually tell us how Alpharius was able to clear the Greenskins in such short a time, even Sanguinius was baffled by it. Thats how I see it.

Horus was a great military commander, perhaps the best of the Primarchs, I would challenge you to provide evidence to the contrary. He is also consistently portrayed as one of the most capable physical combatants amongst the Primarchs, something which cannot reasonably be explained because of his charisma. Even Corax, the only individual I am aware of that actively disliked Horus, ranked him and Sanguinius as the only ones capable of defeating Angron in personal combat.



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post #87 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-01-14, 02:07 PM
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Horus is the epitome of average in relation to the primarchs, he has never displayed any exceptional tactics, and his strategies for the heresy were straight forward and average in their effect. He has been given featless accolades, his war record in part is due to him being found first and thus having first entry to the crusade market.

So I ask you show me displays from the fluff that actually show concrete examples of his above average tactics, strategies, martial combat ability, physical advantages, psychic abilities. The only accolades he has are from the view points of a standard human, of which as prior stated his charisma causes others to view him greater then he is and thus inflates his reputation. All of them primarchs that have ever spoken about him praise him for his leadership, being a good general, and not for anything else. Furthermore all of the accolades assigned to him as being "The best of the primarchs" has never been backed up by any concrete examples, it is simply just praise due to his crushing charisma that makes near anyone love him.

Horus is average
Firstly, I find it almost laughable that you demand others to show you displays from the fluff to back up their arguments, when you have never done anyone else the same courtesy. But ok, I'll bite...

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he has never displayed any exceptional tactics, and his strategies for the heresy were straight forward and average in their effect. He has been given featless accolades
In the first chapter of Brotherhood of the Storm they mention Ullanor and how it was Horus and his legion who had turned the tide when it looked like the Imperial forces would have been overwhelmed. This is later supported in chapter 6 of Fear to Tread when it is mentioned that Horus, with a feint strategy he devised, delivered the pivotal blow in the Ullanor crusade that lead to Imperial victory. Not to mention he was the one who slew the Warlord and threw his body from the top of the Warlord's stronghold.

The beginning of Fear to Tread also details a campaign the Luna Wolves and Blood Angels executed against beings called the Nephilim on a planet called Melchior. It is clearly stated that Horus devised the plan, a plan which also involved feints, strategic thinking, turning what the Nephilim believed the Imperium's weakness into a strength and using it to their advantage to draw out the Nephilim, which resulted in the complete and utter defeat of the aliens.

And that's not even considering the blow Horus struck at Isstvan, one that crippled 3 loyalist legions and saw the death of Ferrus Manus.

So your claims about the average affect of his tactics are simply not true.

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The only accolades he has are from the view points of a standard human... All of them primarchs that have ever spoken about him praise him for his leadership, being a good general, and not for anything else.
Firstly, If you think that being a good general only involves being charismatic, you clearly have no grasp of war or executing military campaigns... none at all.

Not to mention your statements are not even remotely true. He is acknowledged by most of his brothers as being one of, if not the greatest amongst them. And the Emperor himself named Horus Warmaster, not any standard humans.

In Angel Exterminatus when Perturabo and Fulgrim discuss Perturabo's place, he specifically mentions lacking the "warpcraft of Magnus" or the "war-craft of Horus". We know Magnus was the most gifted and knowledgeable psyker amongst the primarchs hence why Perturabo mentions him. And then he lists Horus (not Dorn, Guilliman, the Lion) and his skill at warcraft.

In Betrayer Lorgar himself describes Horus as having balance in all his talents, but also, like Sanguinius, excelling in all of them. Which is why Lorgar thinks the Emperor chose Horus as Warmaster. Angron himself later acknowledges Horus as a skilled commander, and Angron dislikes Horus, describing him as an "arrogant, preening bastard". There are also mentions in chapter 10 of when the World Eaters discover their primarch, and whether he would be a "warrior and general to rival Horus, Guilliman, Dorn or the Lion", which shows that Horus was widely acknowledged and accepted of being one of the greatest amongst his brothers.

And then we have Corax, in Flight of the Raven classing Horus, with Angron and Sanguinius, as arguably the 3 top combatants amongst the primarchs. And in chapter 2 of Deliverance Lost regards Horus as one of the greatest strategists in the Imperium. And we know that Corax and the Raven Guard served alongside Horus and his legion for a long time, and that he also did not like or see eye-to-eye with Horus, so he is arguably the most objective source we have available.

And I got all this from only a handful of novels. There is a lot more material spread out across the HH series, but I am not going to go look through every single novel I posses just to prove this point. There is plenty of evidence within the HH fluff to justify Horus's reputation, if you only bother looking for it.

As to why we don't have arguably better examples, detailing specific strategies used etc. CotE sums it up perfectly...

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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
My point is that, for the writers, masterful (Primarch-level) strategic or tactical minutiae is next-to-impossible to portray because anything they explain in detail is automatically comprehended by us as the readers. Thus in order to illustrate the Primarchs' superhuman ability they have to refrain from properly illustrating their strategy. A good example of this is Alpharius' clearing of the Kayvas Belt, Fear to Tread doesn't actually tell us how Alpharius was able to clear the Greenskins in such short a time, even Sanguinius was baffled by it. Thats how I see it.
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Horus is average
So to sum up, no he isn't. Now I have provided fluff examples to justify my claims about Horus. Now how about you back up your claims, using the fluff, to disprove me. Show me all the examples that depict Horus as only having charisma going for him, and using it to over-inflate his reputation.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.

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post #88 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-01-14, 03:10 PM
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So to sum up, no he isn't. Now I have provided fluff examples to justify my claims about Horus. Now how about you back up your claims, using the fluff, to disprove me. Show me all the examples that depict Horus as only having charisma going for him, and using it to over-inflate his reputation.
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But being a master strategist has absolutely no bearing on the discussion at hand, who'd beat who in a straight up scrap So far we have no proof of Horus' combat prowess against a primarch. Even when he does eventually face one he is massively boosted by his Chaos gifts.

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post #89 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-01-14, 03:18 PM
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Firstly, I find it almost laughable that you demand others to show you displays from the fluff to back up their arguments, when you have never done anyone else the same courtesy. But ok, I'll bite...



In the first chapter of Brotherhood of the Storm they mention Ullanor and how it was Horus and his legion who had turned the tide when it looked like the Imperial forces would have been overwhelmed. This is later supported in chapter 6 of Fear to Tread when it is mentioned that Horus, with a feint strategy he devised, delivered the pivotal blow in the Ullanor crusade that lead to Imperial victory. Not to mention he was the one who slew the Warlord and threw his body from the top of the Warlord's stronghold.

The beginning of Fear to Tread also details a campaign the Luna Wolves and Blood Angels executed against beings called the Nephilim on a planet called Melchior. It is clearly stated that Horus devised the plan, a plan which also involved feints, strategic thinking, turning what the Nephilim believed the Imperium's weakness into a strength and using it to their advantage to draw out the Nephilim, which resulted in the complete and utter defeat of the aliens.

And that's not even considering the blow Horus struck at Isstvan, one that crippled 3 loyalist legions and saw the death of Ferrus Manus.

So your claims about the average affect of his tactics are simply not true.



Firstly, If you think that being a good general only involves being charismatic, you clearly have no grasp of war or executing military campaigns... none at all.

Not to mention your statements are not even remotely true. He is acknowledged by most of his brothers as being one of, if not the greatest amongst them. And the Emperor himself named Horus Warmaster, not any standard humans.

In Angel Exterminatus when Perturabo and Fulgrim discuss Perturabo's place, he specifically mentions lacking the "warpcraft of Magnus" or the "war-craft of Horus". We know Magnus was the most gifted and knowledgeable psyker amongst the primarchs hence why Perturabo mentions him. And then he lists Horus (not Dorn, Guilliman, the Lion) and his skill at warcraft.

In Betrayer Lorgar himself describes Horus as having balance in all his talents, but also, like Sanguinius, excelling in all of them. Which is why Lorgar thinks the Emperor chose Horus as Warmaster. Angron himself later acknowledges Horus as a skilled commander, and Angron dislikes Horus, describing him as an "arrogant, preening bastard". There are also mentions in chapter 10 of when the World Eaters discover their primarch, and whether he would be a "warrior and general to rival Horus, Guilliman, Dorn or the Lion", which shows that Horus was widely acknowledged and accepted of being one of the greatest amongst his brothers.

And then we have Corax, in Flight of the Raven classing Horus, with Angron and Sanguinius, as arguably the 3 top combatants amongst the primarchs. And in chapter 2 of Deliverance Lost regards Horus as one of the greatest strategists in the Imperium. And we know that Corax and the Raven Guard served alongside Horus and his legion for a long time, and that he also did not like or see eye-to-eye with Horus, so he is arguably the most objective source we have available.

And I got all this from only a handful of novels. There is a lot more material spread out across the HH series, but I am not going to go look through every single novel I posses just to prove this point. There is plenty of evidence within the HH fluff to justify Horus's reputation, if you only bother looking for it.

As to why we don't have arguably better examples, detailing specific strategies used etc. CotE sums it up perfectly...





So to sum up, no he isn't. Now I have provided fluff examples to justify my claims about Horus. Now how about you back up your claims, using the fluff, to disprove me. Show me all the examples that depict Horus as only having charisma going for him, and using it to over-inflate his reputation.

I also remember in Know No Fear, Guilliman stating that Horus was one of like 5 primarchs he would go to battle with (Horus, Sang, Leman, Dorn, Ferrus?).

I have a feeling that we will get a display of Horus's might soon enough, whether it be against another primarch, demon, titan etc. that will make everyone realize his might and anticipate the battle against the emporer so much more. Think of everything that we have gotten so far. No way they aren't going to build up Horus as the best of the primarchs before then.
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post #90 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-01-14, 07:31 PM
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So far we have no proof of Horus' combat prowess against a primarch.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, as far as I know, the same can be said for Sanguinius quite frankly. Yet no one ever seems to question it when his name gets thrown out there.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

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