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post #111 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by theurge33 View Post
Pg 39 of the paperback of Deliverence Lost states "Physically, Horus and Corax had proved an even match for each other in their mock duels and wrestling bouts."
WHAT!? IS THIS TRUE? This is....a shocking revelation.

Even so they are merely a physical match for one another, it states nothing about being equals in combat which is more than physicality. Otherwise Corax would not think that Horus could beat Angron, while he himself would most surely lose with no chance of victory.

So no, they are not equals in combat.
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post #112 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 03:16 AM
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brag?only?
lets look at for instance Guilliman, he wrote in a book pretty much exactly what he would do for the vast majority of tactical situations, i'll be damned if fulgrim hadnt taken every single opportunity to advertise, compile and distribute his every strike, just like how he shared his own legions battle information.
In contrast, look at how the khan uses the Alpha legions ignorance about how he fights in void battles for his own advantage, turns it from what would have been a stalemate to a total victory simply by using his factor of surprise and capitalizing on the ignorance of others, no one is ignorant of fulgrims methods and abilities, he has spent the best part of the crusade flaunting them.
The codex Guilliman started to properly compile during the Heresy? The one detailing Legion warfare and tactics, not primarch fighting styles? The one, given the Khan's nature, he was probably ignorant to, and wouldn't even have given a shit about, in all likelihood, if he had? And yes, I call that bragging by Fulgrim. Bragging on the scale of a primarch, but still bragging.

And the tactics you described by the Khan are not actually so unknown to all. Horus uses the zao during The Wolf of Ash and Fire, claiming that the Khan taught it to him. Granted, it takes them 5 minutes where it took the White Scars 5 seconds, but still, it shows White Scars tactics are not totally secret. And Russ, who doesn't even seem the know the Khan well, or be on good terms with him, seemed to have a good idea of what the Khan is capable with his sword, so his own abilities aren't that unknown either.

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im just saying im sure he would have a far better time if he had more room to maneuver, regardless he performed well toe to toe despite being disadvantaged , though he did sustain injury due to the fact he was surprised at feruss's death.
And I'm saying that he has a clear disadvantage that some other gifted warrior, a primarch for example, could exploit once they discovered it. And he took way more than one hit. In the aftermath it still describes that his wounds (plural) took longer than normal for him to heal, and that he now has scars (plural) from his encounter with Mortarion.

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look at what any primarch values the most in regards to fighting style, then look at what the legion specializes in, it's obvious, then those same legions and primarchs are the best at their tactical niche, then couple that with the fact he himself more than anyone else values speed, was made for speed (like how mortarion was made for physical endurance), it is self evident.
Not really. Again you are applying a legion preference to a primarchs fighting ability. The fact that the Khan values speed is a testament to how he grew up and the tactics that were widely used on that planet. Like almost all the primarchs, the nature of his homeworld greatly influenced how he would come to perceive the waging of war. The speed of the White Scars in how they operate comes from technological modifications to their ships etc. and adapting and honing that type of warfare since the Khan took over the legion. And we do not know whether he was "made for speed". Magnus even states in a conversation with the Khan that he had actually been destined to land on Chemos and Fulgrim on Chogoris, but someone/something interfered. Vulkan had ships that were also geared towards durability, but does that make him more physically durable than Mortarion (and I am actually talking about physical ability to take damage, not heal from it)? Saying the Khan is the fastest because his legion had the fastest ships and valued speed the most is not much of an argument IMO.

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I dont know about Mortarion countering, seems like he just took the hits (im not saying that against mortarion)seemed to me the only hit he managed was due the surprise he gained from telling the khan about ferrus's death
He did counter them using his own strengths/skills. They still describe it as him robbing blows of their strength, by sucking their power "like a leech". He wasn't as fast as the Khan, but far stronger physically, and more durable. So he used that to his advantage like the Khan used his speed. And as I already pointed out, the Khan did take more than one hit.

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Furthermore the exchange between Corax and Curze was more than blocking a single a strike, it states that Curze effortlessly lifted his claw upward in defiance of Corax who was with all his might pushing downward to kill Lorgar. So at the very least from that exchange we learned that Curze far outclasses Corax in strength, as he was effortlessly lifting Corax's downward pushing strike of which Corax had the momentum and leverage advantage and still was overpowered.
So an exhausted Corax struggled in a test of strength against a fresh Night Haunter? That still does not mean that Corax lost a fight to Curze, which was the point I was making. Also, where does it state that Curze blocks Corax effortlessly. He wore a "grim" smile, but that is all we know. He is arguably the most gifted of the primarchs where it comes to psychological warfare, so in all likelihood he tried to keep his face neutral in order to try and unnerve Corax.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.

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post #113 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Lux View Post
WHAT!? IS THIS TRUE? This is....a shocking revelation.

Even so they are merely a physical match for one another, it states nothing about being equals in combat which is more than physicality. Otherwise Corax would not think that Horus could beat Angron, while he himself would most surely lose with no chance of victory.

So no, they are not equals in combat.
I never said they were equals, just referencing where the train of thought comes from. Corax states himself that Horus, Sanguinius and Angron were who he thought were the most gifted in combat.
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post #114 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 05:23 PM
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Thing is though with regards to all this, yes, I personally believe that some primarchs do in fact have an edge in combat over others. But, and as I and a few others have said before, the differences are so small that the circumstances under which any duel between primarchs takes place can heavily influence the results. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that in the vast majority of cases, the circumstances/terrain/conditions of the fight would in all likelihood be the deciding factor.

Just look at how close duels between them always are, even if one ends up victorious. The most one-sided fight so far was probably the one between Corax and Lorgar, and even Lorgar managed to last a fair while and get a few hits in. Fulgrim and Ferrus, a close battle. Khan and Mortartion, also very close and undecided. Magnus and Russ, another close one. The Lion and Curze have also both been matched extremely closely in all their encounters. Even Angron had a hard time with both Guilliman and Russ, despite the fact that he beat them both.

The fact that the primarchs are generally so close to each other in martial ability means that the specifics of any duel can either greatly enhance or totally negate whatever advantages one might hold over the other. Take the Khan, as mentioned previously, for example. In a tight, cramped area, he would have a much harder time than he would in a wide open space. Angron also might be able to beat most other primarchs in an open arena, but how well would he do, for example, in a dense, dark forest facing the likes of someone like Curze or Corax? Where speed, stealth and the ability to strike quickly and fade away again would be far more useful than a conventional approach to fighting. Corax himself was convinced that Angron would kill him in a straight up duel, but if you put Corax on home turf and allow him to play to his strengths, I think the end result could be very different.

But that is just my personal take on the matter.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.

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post #115 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Chompy Bits View Post
Thing is though with regards to all this, yes, I personally believe that some primarchs do in fact have an edge in combat over others. But, and as I and a few others have said before, the differences are so small that the circumstances under which any duel between primarchs takes place can heavily influence the results. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that in the vast majority of cases, the circumstances/terrain/conditions of the fight would in all likelihood be the deciding factor.

Just look at how close duels between them always are, even if one ends up victorious. The most one-sided fight so far was probably the one between Corax and Lorgar, and even Lorgar managed to last a fair while and get a few hits in. Fulgrim and Ferrus, a close battle. Khan and Mortartion, also very close and undecided. Magnus and Russ, another close one. The Lion and Curze have also both been matched extremely closely in all their encounters. Even Angron had a hard time with both Guilliman and Russ, despite the fact that he beat them both.

The fact that the primarchs are generally so close to each other in martial ability means that the specifics of any duel can either greatly enhance or totally negate whatever advantages one might hold over the other. Take the Khan, as mentioned previously, for example. In a tight, cramped area, he would have a much harder time than he would in a wide open space. Angron also might be able to beat most other primarchs in an open arena, but how well would he do, for example, in a dense, dark forest facing the likes of someone like Curze or Corax? Where speed, stealth and the ability to strike quickly and fade away again would be far more useful than a conventional approach to fighting. Corax himself was convinced that Angron would kill him in a straight up duel, but if you put Corax on home turf and allow him to play to his strengths, I think the end result could be very different.

But that is just my personal take on the matter.
Yes but some primarchs have undeniable advantages, as we saw in the battle between the Dandy Hawk versus the Prime Leech. Some advantages are just too great in direct combat to be countered by skill, and or environment.
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post #116 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 08:18 PM
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Lux, are those the names of the two lost primarchs?
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post #117 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-09-14, 12:34 AM
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Sanguinius
Angron/Russ
Magnus/Conrad/Lion
Horus/Corax/Khan/Fulgrim/Guilliman
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post #118 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-23-14, 08:25 AM
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I never considered the Khan a high tier fighting primarch, but Scars changed my mind. We'll never see the Khan fight Fulgrim, too bad.
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post #119 of 121 (permalink) Old 03-14-14, 12:31 PM
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Lorgar explicitly states in Betrayer that the only primarchs who had the power to possibly stand up to Sanguinius once he's "backed into a corner with nothing left to lose" are Horus and Angron. Angron himself locks blades with Russ and Roboute in the same novel (in seperate incidents), besting them both desicively.

Oh, by the way, this is my first post and couldn't see where the 'spoiler' brackets were. Can anyone help me with that?
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post #120 of 121 (permalink) Old 03-14-14, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhr View Post
Lorgar explicitly states in Betrayer that the only primarchs who had the power to possibly stand up to Sanguinius once he's "backed into a corner with nothing left to lose" are Horus and Angron. Angron himself locks blades with Russ and Roboute in the same novel (in desperate incidents), besting them both desicively.

Oh, by the way, this is my first post and couldn't see where the 'spoiler' brackets were. Can anyone help me with that?
Just put

[ Spoiler] at the top of the post and [ /spoiler] at the bottom - just remove the spaces
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