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post #101 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Chompy Bits View Post
Why?
I would say for two reasons, regardless, who cares if he was never noted as a particularly good fighter, both the Khan and mortarion were always on sidelines and were both relatively unknown.

-surprise, no one really knows what to expect with him, what he is capable of or what he could do, the others fulgrim, guilliman, horus etc..... have well documented and widely understood fighting styles.

-the khan had so much trouble with mortarion (well more so than would otherwise be the case) because he was enclosed in a small space, he works best in an open space.

-He loves speed,he is the fastest, speed kills.
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post #102 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 08:07 PM
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I would say for two reasons, regardless, who cares if he was never noted as a particularly good fighter, both the Khan and mortarion were always on sidelines and were both relatively unknown.

-surprise, no one really knows what to expect with him, what he is capable of or what he could do, the others fulgrim, guilliman, horus etc..... have well documented and widely understood fighting styles.
Surprise only counts for so much. And as for the others all having "well documented and widely understood fighting styles", that is a massive assumption on your part. He simply states during an exchange with Fulgrim that he supposedly knows what Fulgrim is capable of because Fulgrim likes to brag.

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-the khan had so much trouble with mortarion (well more so than would otherwise be the case) because he was enclosed in a small space, he works best in an open space.
So we know of one distinct weakness in the Khan's fighting style... how does that put him in the top tier?

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-He loves speed,he is the fastest, speed kills.
Where is it stated that he is the fastest? He is faster than Mortarion, and, along with his legion, greatly values speed. But that does not mean he is the fastest amongst the primarchs by any stretch of the imagination. And Mortarion seemed more than capable of countering the Khan's speed with his own strength.

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post #103 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Chompy Bits View Post
Surprise only counts for so much. And as for the others all having "well documented and widely understood fighting styles", that is a massive assumption on your part. He simply states during an exchange with Fulgrim that he supposedly knows what Fulgrim is capable of because Fulgrim likes to brag.
brag?only?
lets look at for instance Guilliman, he wrote in a book pretty much exactly what he would do for the vast majority of tactical situations, i'll be damned if fulgrim hadnt taken every single opportunity to advertise, compile and distribute his every strike, just like how he shared his own legions battle information.
In contrast, look at how the khan uses the Alpha legions ignorance about how he fights in void battles for his own advantage, turns it from what would have been a stalemate to a total victory simply by using his factor of surprise and capitalizing on the ignorance of others, no one is ignorant of fulgrims methods and abilities, he has spent the best part of the crusade flaunting them.

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So we know of one distinct weakness in the Khan's fighting style... how does that put him in the top tier?
im just saying im sure he would have a far better time if he had more room to maneuver, regardless he performed well toe to toe despite being disadvantaged , though he did sustain injury due to the fact he was surprised at feruss's death.


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Originally Posted by Chompy Bits View Post

Where is it stated that he is the fastest? He is faster than Mortarion, and, along with his legion, greatly values speed. But that does not mean he is the fastest amongst the primarchs by any stretch of the imagination. And Mortarion seemed more than capable of countering the Khan's speed with his own strength.
look at what any primarch values the most in regards to fighting style, then look at what the legion specializes in, it's obvious, then those same legions and primarchs are the best at their tactical niche, then couple that with the fact he himself more than anyone else values speed, was made for speed (like how mortarion was made for physical endurance), it is self evident.

I dont know about Mortarion countering, seems like he just took the hits (im not saying that against mortarion)seemed to me the only hit he managed was due the surprise he gained from telling the khan about ferrus's death

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post #104 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 09:19 PM
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And again we have Sanguinius listed, with no primarch combat feats to back the claims, but Horus gets shunted, when he has just as much acknowledgement as a skilled warrior throughout the series as the Angel has. I really don't get it.
I agree 200%. yet again and again, he's referenced by other Primarchs in the HH books as being possibly the finest warrior. Guess we'll have to wait for a BA book.
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post #105 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 11:39 PM
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Show me the quote Chompy Bits where it states Corax was a equal match for Horus in sparring, because there has never been a single source that states this. It is a forum myth along with the claim that only 3 primarchs bested horus in sparring, no source for either of these claims exist.

Furthermore the exchange between Corax and Curze was more than blocking a single a strike, it states that Curze effortlessly lifted his claw upward in defiance of Corax who was with all his might pushing downward to kill Lorgar. So at the very least from that exchange we learned that Curze far outclasses Corax in strength, as he was effortlessly lifting Corax's downward pushing strike of which Corax had the momentum and leverage advantage and still was overpowered.
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post #106 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 12:32 AM
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Furthermore the exchange between Corax and Curze was more than blocking a single a strike, it states that Curze effortlessly lifted his claw upward in defiance of Corax who was with all his might pushing downward to kill Lorgar. So at the very least from that exchange we learned that Curze far outclasses Corax in strength, as he was effortlessly lifting Corax's downward pushing strike of which Corax had the momentum and leverage advantage and still was overpowered.
Bearing in mind Corax had already been fighting for quite a while against lorgar, in addition to the brunt of lorgars possessed space marines.


The foul irony of the moment settled on his shoulders, feeling
grotesquely apt. He couldn’t move his legs. His body was a temple
to nothing but pain. He could barely even see his executioner,
for his psychic efforts had left him quivering with both weakness
and a vision-blurring ache in his mind. A faint outline met his
gaze, the blurred image of scythe-blades raised high.
‘Do it!’ Lorgar screamed at his brother.
The claw fell, and struck opposing metal.
CORAX LOOKED TO meet eyes as black as his, in a face as pale as
his own. His claw strained against a mirroring weapon, both sets
of blades scraping as they ground against each other. One claw
seeking to fall and kill, the other unyielding in its rising defence.

so no, curze does not far outclass corax in strength, indeed, given the context, nothing shows he outclasses him at all.
In addition, corax was hesitant and he tarried in time, so also in speed, therefore also of strength in the blow.

Last edited by Lost&Damned; 02-04-14 at 12:39 AM.
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post #107 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 12:43 AM
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Lost&Damned, don't forget to quote that bit reading between the lines and to change your perspective and open your mind and that the 40k universe is spewing from Lux's microcosm after a cranial impact left her mind detached and cucumber elephants.



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post #108 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 01:27 AM
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The foul irony of the moment settled on his shoulders, feeling grotesquely apt. He couldn't move his legs. His body was a temple to nothing but pain. He could barely even see his executioner, for his psychic efforts had left him quivering with both weakness and a vision-blurring ache in his mind. A faint outline met his gaze, the blurred image of scythe-blades raised high.

‘Do it!' Lorgar screamed at his brother.

The claw fell, and struck opposing metal.

Corax looked to meet eyes as black as his, in a face as pale as his own. His claw strained against a mirroring weapon, both sets of blades scraping as they ground against each other. One claw seeking to fall and kill, the other unyielding in its rising defence.

Where the Raven Guard primarch's features were fierce with effort, the other face wore a grin. It was a smile both taut and mirthless - a dead man's smile, once his lips surrendered to rigor mortis.

‘Corax,' said the other primarch.

‘Curze,' Corax said the name as the curse it was.

‘Look into my eyes,' said the progenitor of the Night Lords Legion, ‘and see your death.'

Corax sought to wrench his claw free, but Curze's second gauntlet closed on his brother's wrist. ‘No,' Curze's laughter as was joyless as his smile. ‘Do not fly away, little raven. Stay. We are not finished, you and I.'

‘Konrad,' Corax tried. ‘Why have you done this?'

Curze ignored the plea. He turned his void-like eyes on the prone Lorgar, with disgust written plain across his carcass face. ‘Rise from your knees, you accursed coward.'

Lorgar sought to do just that, using his brother's midnight-blue armour as a crutch to haul himself to his feet. Curze bared his sharpened teeth. ‘You are the foulest weakling I have ever seen, Lorgar.'

Corax was not idle as this exchange took place. He fired his flight pack, burning his fuel reserves to escape Curze's grip.
From this we see that Curze effortlessly lifted Corax downward striking blow, Corax had the momentum and leverage advantage. It also clearly states that Curze was unyielding in his rising defense, not only did he stop Corax downward momentum he was continuously lifting it against Corax pushing it down.

Curze then grabbed Corax by the wrist and Corax was unable to escape by his own strength, he had to burn the remainder of his jet fuel to use the momentum to escape Curze's grip.

So yes Curze effortlessly out classed Corax in strength of pushing, and in strength of grip.
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post #109 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 01:45 AM
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I feel really sad how Dark Angels are so overlooked in HH novel's and in newer fluff aswell. As well as Lion never being depicted properly. He was an excellent knight and tactician. He survived as a baby on a death world next to Eye of Terror until his adulthood and then in 10 years cleaned up the whole planet.
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post #110 of 121 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 01:50 AM
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Show me the quote Chompy Bits where it states Corax was a equal match for Horus in sparring, because there has never been a single source that states this. It is a forum myth along with the claim that only 3 primarchs bested horus in sparring, no source for either of these claims exist.

Furthermore the exchange between Corax and Curze was more than blocking a single a strike, it states that Curze effortlessly lifted his claw upward in defiance of Corax who was with all his might pushing downward to kill Lorgar. So at the very least from that exchange we learned that Curze far outclasses Corax in strength, as he was effortlessly lifting Corax's downward pushing strike of which Corax had the momentum and leverage advantage and still was overpowered.
Pg 39 of the paperback of Deliverence Lost states "Physically, Horus and Corax had proved an even match for each other in their mock duels and wrestling bouts."
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