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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 08-08-17, 03:55 PM
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The sons of Sanguinius actually diverge quite a bit, though most of it is distinctly more subtle than the Space Wolves (... okay, more subtlety than the Wolves isn't a high bar to cross).
Most of those subtle divergencies are accepted as a right of the first founding chapters. Thats why the Mechanicum don't seem to take any issue with the stormwolf or dark talon of the Space Wolves and Dark Angels respectively.

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-Combat style divergence gets underlined with adaptations on vehicles (Furioso and Libby Dreads, Baal Pred).
The furioso is, by and large, a dreadnought with two close combat arms. Truth be told any chapter could field one like that, but many see the merit in arming them with a heavy weapon as support.

When it comes to the librarian dreadnought, why other chapters don't seem to have this is a decent mystery. And as far as the Baal predator, its just one of a number of predator variations designed more for close range support as opposed to long range.

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-Organisation also diverges with the inclusion of the Sanguinary Priests
Who are apothecaries first, and semi chaplains as they look out for signs of the red thirst second.

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-Likely because of the Flaws, Legion spirit still very alive. Note the successors still answer Dante's call with relative ease - see his call for tithes from the successors and the even more recent defense of Baal. Only part of that is Dante himself.
Are you referencing the Blood Angels request tithe to their successors from James Swallow's Blood Angels novels? Cause I distinctly remember Gabriel Seth making such a compelling argument to his fellow chapter masters against the tithe that they were onboard with the idea of disbanding the the Blood Angels and drawing the remains into their own ranks instead.

As for legion spirit still being alive to the point where they will come together:
-The Ultramarines and their successors coming together over the skies of Tsagualsa to exterminate the Night Lords.
-The Imperial Fist and the successors returning something akin to legion strength to enact the Last Wall during the War of the Beast.
-The Unforgiven have, on multiple occasions, come together to capture Fallen Angels.

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-Astorath operates across all Blood Angel successors
You are correct, he does and that is something that us unique to the sons of Sanguinius.


Now keep in mind that I am not saying the Blood Angels are not divergent from the codex astartes. Their history as a founding legion (among other things) gives them the right to not follow the codex to the letter. However to say they are highly divergent is not entirely accurate, they are still organized and mostly operate as per the codex astartes.

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I've not read dark imperium yet - how did SW get nerfed?
The Dark Angels, and possibly Grey Knights, were tricked into attacking Fenris while the scattered Space Wolves fought them and a dozen daemonic incursions meant to snuff out them and the Wulfen the Space Wolves were now trying to protect.

[quote=Brother Dextus;2421978] normal marines are scouts for a good couple of decades I thought
It takes roughly a decade for an aspirant to undergo all the training and implantation required for them to be made a full space marine, in fact its generally complete by the age of 20 or so.

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but I cant see space wolves and Templars being all too overjoyed with gulliman picking up his dads sword, pumping out a new astartes and launching a crusade - he may be the emperors son, but he sort of has form in mini empire building!
Well keep in mind that the only empire building the greater Imperium knows Guilliman for his Ultramar. His Imperium Secundus was not largely known, especially by the likes of the Space Wolves or Imperial Fists.

And why would the Templars not be happy seeing a primarch leading the charge against the enemies of man in a crusade? You said it yourself, they have disdain for other chapters because they don't do that very thing. Now you have one of the Emperor's greatest marvels leading a crusade, essentially validating the MO of the Templars.

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I disagree with darkreaver about the Templars having the greatest of respect for gulliman because he drove chaos back
I never said greatest respect, as that would be owed to the Emperor and Dorn. What I said was of all the other primarchs Guilliman would likely be the one they respected almost as much as their own for what he achieved.

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A vague respect because he's a direct son of the emperor is as far as I'd stretch. Templars hold most 1st founding chapters in contempt because they have stayed in formation to protect civilians instead of crushing the enemy under their boots.
Yes, things that the chapters fell a bit more into doing without the presence of the primarchs (to one degree or another.) Since his return Guilliman has launched crusade after crusade, crushing the enemies of mankind in a bid to unite and protect the shattered Imperium.

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If theres (reportedly) 5000 Templars, of which at least 2000 went with Helbrecht, Yarrick etc to chase down Ghazgul, there would still be another 2000 kicking about on smaller crusades, and they usually replenish 20% of normal losses from local populations when they find viable planets; loss of a single crusade (which was pretty small really from what I've read from B&C etc) is almost negligible in the grand scheme.
For the Black Templars, unlike most other chapters, it would not be about replenishing losses. Crusades do not stop taking in new recruits once they hit a certain number, instead they keep building until they swell to such a size that a new crusade can be born. Primaris marines would allow the Black Templars to do this at a greater rate, since their losses would be even less while recruitment goes up.

Look at it as something like this:
Start with 50, each year sees 10 losses and 15 additions.
VS
Start with 50, each year sees 5 losses and 20 additions.

If at 100 you split into 2 groups, it takes 10 years for the first instance to achieve that vs 4 years for the second. That would mean in the same 10 year period you more than quadruple your numbers.

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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-17-19, 09:04 PM
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Sorry for the necro but, why did Roboute and Cawl even get together to make them in the first place? I have not been in the hobby for at least 3 years and max 5 years so any info I have is outdated as hell.

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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-17-19, 10:02 PM
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Apparently, Roboute originally gave the order when he was trying to get the Imperium back into SOME sort of shape right after the Horus Heresy. So at the time nearly all the non-traitor Legions were anywhere from heavily bruised to practically gone, the military might of the Imperium is devastated... He predicted another major attack from Chaos sooner or later and wasn't certain if the Space Marines would be enough.

What do you know, he finally wakes up during the 13th Black Crusade and Cawl's got those Primaris he ordered ready to deal with exactly that scenario, awaiting only his order. Thus, Ultima Founding and Guilliman goes after the Chaos horde with a horde of Cawl's Primaris Marines.

I'll note here the Space Marines would probably have had an easier time dealing with the 13th Black Crusade if Guilliman has listened to Dorn's concerns and NOT broken up the loyal Legions, as dealing with Chaos Space Marines in the hundreds of thousands is kind of somewhat DIFFICULT for Chapter-sized forces, but there you go.

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-17-19, 10:11 PM
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That sounds incredibly dumb? Why not make the primaris available as soon as possible and to all chapters when they started it instead of being delayed 10k years? But why did GW bring back Roboute instead of Lion or something?

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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-18-19, 02:07 AM
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There's a long startup time involved anyway. Figuring out new additions to the Space Marine implants isn't easy, add in working out the new equipment... It's a big job and all that while most of the Mechanicus has an understandable wariness about innovation (at best) so they're not going to be helping much. There may have been some small test groups killing enemies of the Imperium running around, we don't know.

Add in the fact that Cawl is effectively trying to improve on the work of the Emperor which is pretty much blasphemy to most of the Imperium and requiring somebody very high up to give a final okay on releasing the results of such experimentation on the galaxy is logical. It's unlikely anybody short of a Primarch could have made that call and lived.

As for why Roboute... because the Smurfs are the GW posterboys. The first Loyal Primarch with a 40K model was always going to be him.

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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-18-19, 03:13 AM
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Yeah but the Dark Angels were on the cover and in the starter for 6th!

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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-19-19, 12:17 AM
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Why not make the primaris available as soon as possible and to all chapters when they started it instead of being delayed 10k years?
Because by the time Cawl finished the primaris project to where it could be implemented, Guilliman had been wounded by Fulgrim and was in stasis. At that point in time, the Imperium had moved to a stance where what Cawl did would have been considered heresy of the highest level; without the backing of Guilliman he would have been killed, the primaris destroyed, and all knowledge of the project wiped from existence.



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But why did GW bring back Roboute instead of Lion or something?
Well Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus are dead and no one knows the whereabouts of the Khan, Vulkan, Russ, or Corax. Dorn is believed dead (and depending on the source material you go by either one of his hands, or his entire skeleton, is encased in amber on the phalanx) and the Lion is missing (only the watchers know that he is somewhere deep in the Rock in a state of semi stasis.)


Guilliman was in stasis on Macraage, stuck that way until there was a way to prevent the mortal wound Fulgrim dealt him with the anatheme from killing him.




Bringing Guilliman back kind of made sense. Of all the primarchs in the post Heresy era, he was the one who kept the fractured Imperium together. How many other primarchs were empire builders and not just warlords?

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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-19-19, 03:41 AM
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Ah though woiuldn't Guilliman have left a pamphlet or something to protect Cawl?


But just griping that it wasn't my primarch that got back more than anything else.

Also also nice to see your still around dark!
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-22-19, 09:28 PM
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But just griping that it wasn't my primarch that got back more than anything else.

Guilleman was the candidate that the Ynnari chose, either because he was the only option they knew of or they felt he was the best suited, or both.



Either way, they had the power of life and death at their disposal, and the act required that Big Blue be allowed to die before he could be resurrected.



I'd also like to point out my admiration for how it was all handled. Rather than Roboute seeing the problem and immediately setting out to fix it like some hero from legend, he laments that he was brought back into this struggle after already giving his all to try and save the Imperium in the past. He even remarks that it would have been better the Imperium perished in the fires of Horus' ambition than to have become what it is today.



It seems duty is the only thing that still compels him to try again.


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