The Emperor, genetics and no female Space Marines - Page 4 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Fluff Discuss GW background material here. All those bits in the Codex that aren't stat blocks or special rules. Post your custom character/chapter/army background in our Homebrew Fluff subforum!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-02-16, 09:32 PM
Senior Member
 
Shandathe's Avatar
Shandathe's Flag is: Netherlands
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,494
Reputation: 14
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphrati View Post
See? This is what I'm talking about. It seems like people simply cannot accept females can not be astartes. Even when the lore is outright specific on it cannot be done- not that 'well, it is possible but the wrath of the =][= will fall on you!'.

There always seems to be someone trying to butcher the lore in some round-a-bout way to justify their army of female 'marines'.

Yet, I have yet to see someone try and pass off an army of MALE battle sisters....
I'm not saying anyone in the Imperium can do it, I'm arguing that Humanity at its peak, during the Dark Age of Technology, definitely would have had the ability. Note the Navigator Houses also stem from this period. If you can create a (mostly) stably breeding human line that can actually see the Warp, you can do the same for superhumans. The fact that it's a bad idea due to the aforementioned side effect of getting yourself an "Obsolete" tag would not have stopped it happening

As for male Battle Sisters... The idea's actually been tossed around before, mostly for counts-as purposes. Not sure if it's been done properly the way you'd want it to be, but we may see some should there ever be a new Sisters Codex with a lot of new toys everyone wants.

As for who said 'Sisters' cannot be boys... that would've been the High Lords of Terra. The previous incarnation of Ecclesiarchy forces, Frateris Templar, can arguably be build on the Sororitas Codex. Between 30K and 40K though, difficult time period to find a game in

Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers; all of which are true and horrifying to know.

Last edited by Shandathe; 05-02-16 at 09:37 PM.
Shandathe is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-02-16, 11:17 PM
Member
 
Brother Armiger's Avatar
Brother Armiger's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 60
Reputation: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
Pardon me, but I feel/believe some of things here are incorrect or wrong.
While we're nitpicking, "Incorrect" and "wrong" are both the same thing. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
Any sources on this one? Because I think this is an extreme minority more than anything. For what little I've ever seen in regards to recruitment, its viewed as a great honour and a lot of prestige and positive is thrust on both attempting to be taken and those who might achieve it.
Astartes take the most qualified. That doesn't always mean 'recruit', or 'offer'. A lot of guys line up for it, but you also have to keep in mind that the Astartes are pulling 13-year-old boys in many cases. Hardly an 'adult decision', but you could argue feral world cultures and the like.



Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
I would think that those who are taken unwillingly are in the far, far, far minority. This seems more true given the fact that aspirants are taken at the start of puberty, a time when you can be at some of your most competitive.
And a child.


Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
Space marines might be augmented and modified, but they are also mortal and some of them can be bat shit crazy.
Whereas, all SOBs are completely bonkers. In a good way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
And do you have any sources to back up sisters being volunteers? Because last I recall they are about as brainwashed (possibly even more so in some cases) as marines to be servants of the Imperial church and their duty only ends upon death.
As I understood, the Sisters don't have to be Sisters. It's a lifestyle choice. Better question, you got sources saying they're forced in?
Brother Armiger is offline  
post #33 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-02-16, 11:19 PM
Member
 
Brother Armiger's Avatar
Brother Armiger's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 60
Reputation: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphrati View Post
*Narrows her eyes and sighs*

See? This is what I'm talking about. It seems like people simply cannot accept females can not be astartes. Even when the lore is outright specific on it cannot be done- not that 'well, it is possible but the wrath of the =][= will fall on you!'.

There always seems to be someone trying to butcher the lore in some round-a-bout way to justify their army of female 'marines'.

Yet, I have yet to see someone try and pass off an army of MALE battle sisters....

Welcome to 2016. If it's white, male, or heterosexual in its entirety it must be 'enriched'.

I've seen this conversation a thousand times with more 'radical' elements. This is how I picture the progression...

RADICAL: "Why are there no female Space Marines?"

WH40k: "Because it's in the lore. Emperor said so. Emperor made it so. And it just doesn't work."

RADICAL: "But what science supports that?"

WH40k: "I don't know, you'd have to ask the giant super-psychic guy that fights gods and demons about this. He'd also be the guy you want to ask why a .75 Caliber gyrojet explosive projectile is feasible, while you're talking science and physics and whatnot."

RADICAL: "We want women!"

WH40k: "We made Adeptus Sororitas. Very effective. Power armor. They can pull off some rather amazing feats and go toe-to-toe with Space Marines on the tabletop and hold their own."

RADICAL: "But where are they?"

WH40k: "Those Adeptus Sororitas didn't do as well as we'd hoped. Not a lot of people bought them."

RADICAL: "Make female Space Marines, then."

WH40k: "No. There are females in every other army. The lore says no, and we're not going to re-write that just to accomodate you."

RADICAL: "BIGOT! SEXIST!"

WH40k: "Look, the last time we made a bunch of females they didn't sell."

RADICAL: "Make all Space Marines female! Then people will be forced to play them!"

WH40k: "How much are you spending on this product?"

RADICAL: "I... have... I play Pathfinder...?"

WH40k: "Piss off."

Last edited by Brother Armiger; 05-02-16 at 11:37 PM.
Brother Armiger is offline  
 
post #34 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-02-16, 11:31 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,685
Reputation: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandathe View Post
I'm not saying anyone in the Imperium can do it, I'm arguing that Humanity at its peak, during the Dark Age of Technology, definitely would have had the ability. Note the Navigator Houses also stem from this period. If you can create a (mostly) stably breeding human line that can actually see the Warp, you can do the same for superhumans. The fact that it's a bad idea due to the aforementioned side effect of getting yourself an "Obsolete" tag would not have stopped it happening

As for male Battle Sisters... The idea's actually been tossed around before, mostly for counts-as purposes. Not sure if it's been done properly the way you'd want it to be, but we may see some should there ever be a new Sisters Codex with a lot of new toys everyone wants.

As for who said 'Sisters' cannot be boys... that would've been the High Lords of Terra. The previous incarnation of Ecclesiarchy forces, Frateris Templar, can arguably be build on the Sororitas Codex. Between 30K and 40K though, difficult time period to find a game in
One good reason as to why we need female astartes.

Equal rights is not a valid reason.
Reaper45 is offline  
post #35 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-02-16, 11:51 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 30
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Armiger View Post
While we're nitpicking, "Incorrect" and "wrong" are both the same thing. ;)

Astartes take the most qualified. That doesn't always mean 'recruit', or 'offer'. A lot of guys line up for it, but you also have to keep in mind that the Astartes are pulling 13-year-old boys in many cases. Hardly an 'adult decision', but you could argue feral world cultures and the like.

And a child.

Whereas, all SOBs are completely bonkers. In a good way.

As I understood, the Sisters don't have to be Sisters. It's a lifestyle choice. Better question, you got sources saying they're forced in?
Dude come on, your asked for sources and come back being a cheeky ass and requiring sources from the person not agreeing with you.

Complete weaksauce
Iron-Within is offline  
post #36 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-03-16, 12:01 AM
Member
 
Brother Armiger's Avatar
Brother Armiger's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 60
Reputation: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron-Within View Post
Dude come on, your asked for sources and come back being a cheeky ass and requiring sources from the person not agreeing with you.

Complete weaksauce

Oh, I'm sorry. I was enjoying some humor about a fictional game about little plastic men, not writing a research paper.

You don't have to ride the mod's power sword, if you know what I mean.

Oh, and if you'd like your answer- as I'm reading it, they require a dedication of faith beyond their peers. I'm pretty sure if you looked at a Drill Abbot and said, "I'm not into this Adeptus Sororitas combat shit" you might get smacked, but they don't want you if you're not into it.

Grabbing this from the 40k wiki (it's actually more detailed than the Lexicanum).

Last edited by Brother Armiger; 05-03-16 at 12:09 AM.
Brother Armiger is offline  
post #37 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-03-16, 12:22 AM
Senior Moderator
 
darkreever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: New Jersey, little ways out of NYC
Posts: 6,989
Reputation: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Armiger View Post
While we're nitpicking, "Incorrect" and "wrong" are both the same thing. ;)
Your nitpicking, I wasn't. Unless you count addressing each part of a post as nitpicking, then I guess I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Armiger View Post
Astartes take the most qualified. That doesn't always mean 'recruit', or 'offer'. A lot of guys line up for it, but you also have to keep in mind that the Astartes are pulling 13-year-old boys in many cases. Hardly an 'adult decision', but you could argue feral world cultures and the like.
I don't know, in the case of aspirants taken from death or feral worlds they are being given the chance to receive their cultures highest honour (prove yourself worthy to be accepted amongst the 'sky warriors')

And when it comes to aspirants of more advanced worlds, chapters still look for those who would barely think twice about leaving their old life behind. In the novel Sons of Dorn by Chris Roberson there is a scout who was taken from a hive world where he had been a pit slave and used in death matches for the entertainment of others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Armiger View Post
Whereas, all SOBs are completely bonkers. In a good way.
Except they are not, unless we choose to ignore all of the stories in which they are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Armiger View Post
As I understood, the Sisters don't have to be Sisters. It's a lifestyle choice. Better question, you got sources saying they're forced in?
"Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum. Though the lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan, it is a great honour to pass through the Schola Progenium, and
those who do are well aware of their privilege
."
Pg 6, codex adeptus sororitas

"Every Battle Sister is an orphan raised from birth to believe in the righteousness of their cause."

"Each squad of Battle Sisters is led by a Sister Superior. These warriors are ranked beneath the Canonesses of the Orders Militant and each is directly responsible for the conduct and training of her squad. When a Sororitas joins one of the Orders Militant, she will be adopted by a Sister Superior, and as she learns the ways of battle, it will be this mentor who looks after her physical and spiritual training."
Pg 45, codex adeptus sororitas

Now I know there are more, possibly in the 5th edition sororitas stop-gap codex, codex witch hunters, the novel faith and fire, and in other short stories or novels (one of the Cain novels is about his retired life at a schola where there is at least one sister training new recruits).

But lets just look at the above three. And yes you are right, the women who become sisters did not have to do so, there is a chance they could have been picked up by the inquisition, assassin orders, imperial navy, guard, or become a storm trooper. For those who are taken into the sororitas, their entire life they are raised to believe in serving the imperial church and their order.

Once they start down that road, they get adopted into a family of sorts, and the conditioning they had been going through in a schola continues (or more likely ramps up).

A sister who no longer, say, feels the calling of fighting on the front lines and who has also had a knack for language or healing might turn to one of the orders minoris. But remember thats essentially turning your back on and walking away from the family you had been brought into. Its likely not something you see very often.

Damnation is paved on good intentions; subtle and sugar coated or blunt and honest
A hero is someone who steps up when everyone else backs down.
Popularity is what people strive for when they lack the strength to be themselves.


Seriously, is it really that hard to write reviews without spoilers?

Reporting Posts - read this
darkreever is offline  
post #38 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-03-16, 01:59 AM
Senior Member
 
Euphrati's Avatar
Euphrati's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Carolina, USA
Posts: 855
Reputation: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Armiger View Post
Welcome to 2016. If it's white, male, or heterosexual in its entirety it must be 'enriched'.
One of the reasons I enjoy 30/40k is the lack of 'politically correct force it down your throat' vitriol that is rampant in today's society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
One good reason as to why we need female astartes.
No, there is no good reason for female astartes. We do not, in fact, need them.

Astartes are male. Lore makes this absolutely clear. The is no 'grey area' here. Get over it.

(this is coming from a female by the way)
Euphrati is offline  
post #39 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-03-16, 03:24 AM
Member
 
Brother Armiger's Avatar
Brother Armiger's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 60
Reputation: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphrati View Post
One of the reasons I enjoy 30/40k is the lack of 'politically correct force it down your throat' vitriol that is rampant in today's society.
Oh, don't think our hobby isn't targeted for Exterminatus by the Adeptus Socjus. If this were the place to discuss it, I'd find articles that claim we do everything from advocate 'that four-letter R-word' and that we're all some form of right-wing bigots.

I was reading something earlier about how people are putting up 'safe gaming space' cards to virtue-signal that they aren't bigots and rapists, and to deter the same.

More of these folks that thinking some piece of paper or sign will magically deter bad people, even more comical because it's not a legal document or anything of the sort. Truth be told, most of the horrible people I know go well out of their way to signal that they aren't what they are as a deceptive tactic.

The worst part was is that I politely commented to the creator of these cards and signs that it seemed to me that it'd be more often used to say, "Look at us, we are better than those guys over there that don't have the card"... or worse, it'd work as well as the pretty pink anti-bullying bracelets that just made it easier for bullies to target the kids that were going in trash cans and lockers...

...I was called a 'gamergater' and blocked immediately.

On the subject of 'Muh Female Spehss Muhreenz', I've got a pretty simple philosophy.

1- I don't care what you think of the canon, you aren't writing it.

2- I don't care about your headcanon. Very few people do.

3- If the canon changed, I'd not be bothered too much as long as it made sense.

4- I don't think the canon needs to change, and I doubt GW does either.

5- I don't care if you modify your models to put a woman's head on your Space Marines, it's your money.

6- I don't want to hear a sermon on gender or sexism or feminism, I'm at the table to play a game and I will not waste my recreational time hearing your lecture.

7- If you are playing at a FGLS and you don't like my attitude about this, I'd rather you keep it to yourself because I'll probably make the people in charge well aware that you harass other players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
Your nitpicking, I wasn't. Unless you count addressing each part of a post as nitpicking, then I guess I am.
I'm not 'nitpicking'.

And it's *You're.



Anyway, you've got the book in front of you. I think where I'm seeing the difference:

Conditioning through schooling, religion, etc.- Adeptus Sororitas
Invasive brainwashing techniques- Adeptus Astartes

I read somewhere that the Space Marine psychological indoctrination is more along the lines of hypnosis and some very Manchurian Candidate-type stuff.

Last edited by Brother Armiger; 05-03-16 at 05:28 AM.
Brother Armiger is offline  
post #40 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-03-16, 03:27 AM
Member
 
Brother Armiger's Avatar
Brother Armiger's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 60
Reputation: 4
Default

Double post. SHH....

Last edited by Brother Armiger; 05-03-16 at 05:20 AM.
Brother Armiger is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Fluff

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome