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post #21 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-22-16, 07:16 PM
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Recruiting from Chogoris does not mean only recruting nomads
Has there ever been a reference to a Chogorian White Scar that wasn't originally a nomad? Even once?

From any time, 30k-40k.
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post #22 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-22-16, 07:47 PM
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I'm not sure that's the best indicator, since none of the novels I've read thus far (not many, I admit) have talked about a marine's life before he became an astartes, so I assume it's not that common. Even if no White Scar from any novel ever published has expressed a background besides being a nomad on Chogoris, there are countless White Scars whose backgrounds we just don't know.

Also, characterization in Black Library works is astoundingly formulaic. All but a few characters could easily be swapped out with pretty much anyone else from their chapter/legion/forge/race, et cetera and no one would know the difference. So, I would expect most backstories to resemble each other pretty closely within a group, even if that is not the only kind of person recruited.
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post #23 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-22-16, 10:26 PM
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. Even if no White Scar from any novel ever published has expressed a background besides being a nomad on Chogoris, there are countless White Scars whose backgrounds we just don't know.
It does give us an idea. If the, say, dozen or two marines we do know about only come from the tribesmen and none from anywhere else...

It's probably more likely that they recruit heavily from the tribes and few if any from the cities.

Now I'll be the first one to say that we don't know for sure. But from the information we are given (the lack of non-nomadic White Scars mentioned and the types of people we know Space Marines like to recruit from) it does suggest that the tribesmen would be the primary recruiting pool.

Also when looking at the Index Astartes, it does mention that (at least post-Heresy), "The Stormseers of the White Scars venture down into the steppes every ten summers to obesrve the tribes and their battles, picking the best and bravest warriors and returning them to Quan Zhou to become Space Marines."

Once of their initiation trials is to travel to the pyre-tombs of dead White Scars which is a "great pilgrimage for young tribal warriors".

And another section of the entry states, "However once a warrior has been chosen to join the White Scars, his tribal allegiance is replaced with loyalty to the Great Ghan and the Chapter. Warriors from different tribes are therefore mixed with one another in squads to break up individual tribal loyalties."

There seems to be a strong assumption that every single White Scar is a tribesman. There's no "If an aspirant is a tribes then..." "All tribesmen will then have to..." It just flats out states that every warrior that becomes a White Scar has tribal allegiance.

I mean, potentially, the White Scars may have drawn recruits from the cities during the Heresy, but for one reason or another they decided to stop post-Heresy--perhaps they found the recruits unsatisfactory?

While the matter isn't quite definitively settled (when are they going to release a Forgeworld book on the White Scars!?!), I would say it is more likely they recruited heavily--if not exclusively--from the tribes than not.
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post #24 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-22-16, 11:03 PM
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It does give us an idea. If the, say, dozen or two marines we do know about only come from the tribesmen and none from anywhere else...

It's probably more likely that they recruit heavily from the tribes and few if any from the cities.

Now I'll be the first one to say that we don't know for sure. But from the information we are given (the lack of non-nomadic White Scars mentioned and the types of people we know Space Marines like to recruit from) it does suggest that the tribesmen would be the primary recruiting pool.

Also when looking at the Index Astartes, it does mention that (at least post-Heresy), "The Stormseers of the White Scars venture down into the steppes every ten summers to obesrve the tribes and their battles, picking the best and bravest warriors and returning them to Quan Zhou to become Space Marines."

Once of their initiation trials is to travel to the pyre-tombs of dead White Scars which is a "great pilgrimage for young tribal warriors".

And another section of the entry states, "However once a warrior has been chosen to join the White Scars, his tribal allegiance is replaced with loyalty to the Great Ghan and the Chapter. Warriors from different tribes are therefore mixed with one another in squads to break up individual tribal loyalties."

There seems to be a strong assumption that every single White Scar is a tribesman. There's no "If an aspirant is a tribes then..." "All tribesmen will then have to..." It just flats out states that every warrior that becomes a White Scar has tribal allegiance.

I mean, potentially, the White Scars may have drawn recruits from the cities during the Heresy, but for one reason or another they decided to stop post-Heresy--perhaps they found the recruits unsatisfactory?

While the matter isn't quite definitively settled (when are they going to release a Forgeworld book on the White Scars!?!), I would say it is more likely they recruited heavily--if not exclusively--from the tribes than not.
Chogoris is a feral world, is it not? Even those living in cities would be tribe citizens. Just not nomadic ones.

Further, the argument is fundamentally flawed because we would have to assume that GW is actually basing their current numbers on the presumably limited recruitment possible from a largely nomadic culture. But, as we all know, they will have exactly the right number of recruits that they need to maintain some level of dramatic tension.
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post #25 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-22-16, 11:42 PM
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Even those living in cities would be tribe citizens. Just not nomadic ones.
I don't believe so. In the Index Astartes, the people of the plains are repeatedly called tribesmen or referred to as part of a tribe.

The people of the cities, serving under Palatine, are considered part of the "Chogorian Empire". Also it states that that during the invasion of the Chogorian Empire by Jaghatai, "Some sources claim that millions were killed by the bloodthirsty tribesmen".

Would be a bit odd if the people of the Chogorian Empire were also considered tribesmen. It would be like saying "Some sources claim that millions were killed by the bloodthirsty humans." Makes no sense unless tribesmen somehow made them distinct from the people of the empire.

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Further, the argument is fundamentally flawed because we would have to assume that GW is actually basing their current numbers on the presumably limited recruitment possible from a largely nomadic culture. But, as we all know, they will have exactly the right number of recruits that they need to maintain some level of dramatic tension.
Uh, what's the issue with this? Chapters usually settle down on feral, feudal, or deathworlds. Populations are small.

Look at Fenris. Tiny populations clinging to an icy deathworld where what little solid ground is frequently swallowed up every couple of decades and erupts else where.
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post #26 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-23-16, 01:04 AM
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Has there ever been a reference to a Chogorian White Scar that wasn't originally a nomad? Even once?

From any time, 30k-40k.
There's only been mention of Chogorians and Terrans from Asiatic hive clusters IIRC

I don't think it's ever been stated that the WS only recruit from Chogorian nomads. Khan's dream was to unite Chogoris, which he did. Would there be no non-nomadic aspirants? Possibly...I'm thinking there should be some.

EDIT: Also, I would take IA with a grain of salt. It's even more outdated than Collected Visions

Last edited by MontytheMighty; 02-23-16 at 01:06 AM.
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post #27 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-23-16, 01:25 AM
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Would there be no non-nomadic aspirants? Possibly...I'm thinking there should be some.
There might be some. I'm open to the possibility.

Them holding a majority of the Chogorian recruits? Almost definitely not.

Them even holding a significant minority (say 15%)? I'd have my doubts about that.

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EDIT: Also, I would take IA with a grain of salt. It's even more outdated than Collected Visions
We don't have much information about the Pre-heresy White Scars. Scars gave us a little bit...but really, not much to work with. Not to my knowledge.

If we had a more updated source I'd be glad to use them. Until then, we work with what we're given.
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post #28 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-23-16, 03:51 AM
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The Fenris example actually supports my argument. Fenris is a death world, so by definition the propagation of human life is nigh impossible. Keeping even a small army reinforced from their stock would never be a feasible option. There just wouldn't be enough survivors. But Space Wolves always have enough new recruits, somehow. So assuming the White Scars are small just because they may or may not recruit exclusively from nomads is not a particularly sound argument. They will have however many recruits they need to have.
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post #29 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-23-16, 05:56 AM
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The Fenris example actually supports my argument. Fenris is a death world, so by definition the propagation of human life is nigh impossible. Keeping even a small army reinforced from their stock would never be a feasible option. There just wouldn't be enough survivors. But Space Wolves always have enough new recruits, somehow. So assuming the White Scars are small just because they may or may not recruit exclusively from nomads is not a particularly sound argument. They will have however many recruits they need to have.
Not quite. The Space Wolves had recruiting issues, too. From Scars, "The Wolves numbers had never been among the highest, a feature exacerbated by their aggressive drive to limit recruitment to Fenris..."

So one of the reasons the Wolves were among the smaller legions is because they limited themselves to Fenris.

We know that other Legions could recruit exclusively from their homeworld and maintain their numbers:

The Night Lords being one. Talos tells us in Blood Reaver, "The Legion had taken immense casualties in the Great Crusade...most of these were Terran...but all our reinforcements came from our homeworld, Nostramo."

We know from Massacre the Night Lords were a mid-sized Legion, somewhere between 90,000 to 120,000, so building a reasonably sized Legion from a single planet is feasible.

And, indeed, many hundreds of thousands of recruits were drawn from Terra before and during the early parts of the Great Crusade. Then again Terra is a hive world teeming with people...Fenris and Chogoris are not.
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post #30 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-23-16, 01:36 PM
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I don't even know what you're trying to argue right now. Nostramo was a hive world, meaning it was overflowing with people. Despite that, the Night Lords are only marginally bigger than the Space Wolves, whose planet is impossible to live on. Once again, this just proves that GW is not that concerned with making sure a legion's recruitment practices could actually account for their reported numbers.
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