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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-14-15, 08:36 PM Thread Starter
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Default Marines Malevolent - What is going on?

I've recently read a few Marines Malevolent stories and I just don't understand their set up or their logistics. I will explain by 2 main queries

They all seem to hate each other and will gladly kill each other off? - Other than the Night Lords or World Eaters pre heresy, no other Space Marines ever in the history of GW have ever been portrayed in this negative light. In the short story Devils Trappings one of them deliberately tries to cripple his fellow marine so that they can escape. In another story who's name escapes me they try to rescue some captured Imperial Guard commanders. In it the Commander hates the leader of their Elite company and actually betrayed him to the Black Templars at the end of the story.

They don't have access to any armouries or spare parts so they're constantly having to scavenge? Every other Chapter has at least some ability to request replacement armour or fix broken armour. However it's been repeated in the 2 stories mentioned above that some of the Marines are using partly broken armour and have almost no ammunition. Why don't they just request some from the Imperium or Mechanicum? Do they have no allies at all?

Of course if they are the loyalist remnants of the Night Lords (which to me seems the most likely as the World Eaters pre Butcher Nails had more honour than the Marines Malevolent seem to have) then this would make sense.

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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-14-15, 09:30 PM
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Not too sure of their background, but I do remember them being pricks in the Salamanders books, stealing a shipload of Heresy era armour, and there's the incident on Armageddon when they bombard a refugee camp just to kill a few orks. They certainly have earned their title.
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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-14-15, 09:38 PM
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I don't think it's so much that they hate each other but rather self interest. If betraying another marine could advance their position or save themselves they'll do it. In the salamander books they worked ok with the salamanders up to a point.

But everything else to chalked up to them being borderline censured.

When a Salamander captain punches another commander it says allot about them. The salamanders are known to be the nicest chapter willing to respect all humans, just because that's their way.
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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-15-15, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerachiel76 View Post
I've recently read a few Marines Malevolent stories and I just don't understand their set up or their logistics. I will explain by 2 main queries

They all seem to hate each other and will gladly kill each other off? - Other than the Night Lords or World Eaters pre heresy, no other Space Marines ever in the history of GW have ever been portrayed in this negative light. In the short story Devils Trappings one of them deliberately tries to cripple his fellow marine so that they can escape. In another story who's name escapes me they try to rescue some captured Imperial Guard commanders. In it the Commander hates the leader of their Elite company and actually betrayed him to the Black Templars at the end of the story.

They don't have access to any armouries or spare parts so they're constantly having to scavenge? Every other Chapter has at least some ability to request replacement armour or fix broken armour. However it's been repeated in the 2 stories mentioned above that some of the Marines are using partly broken armour and have almost no ammunition. Why don't they just request some from the Imperium or Mechanicum? Do they have no allies at all?

Of course if they are the loyalist remnants of the Night Lords (which to me seems the most likely as the World Eaters pre Butcher Nails had more honour than the Marines Malevolent seem to have) then this would make sense.
Some from the Astartes go through much more gruling history and campaigns then others. The Marines Malevolent seem to be one of those military organizations that have been through a lot and have disregard for life. It also seems like maybe the only thing to look forward to in the ranks of the Marines Malevolent is rising up in the ranks and disregarding how many people you screw over. Thats pretty realistic though with an organization that really has nothing more to look forward to then the old Imperial rhetoric.
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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-15-15, 08:37 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist View Post
Not too sure of their background, but I do remember them being pricks in the Salamanders books, stealing a shipload of Heresy era armour, and there's the incident on Armageddon when they bombard a refugee camp just to kill a few orks. They certainly have earned their title.
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I don't think it's so much that they hate each other but rather self interest. If betraying another marine could advance their position or save themselves they'll do it. In the salamander books they worked ok with the salamanders up to a point.

But everything else to chalked up to them being borderline censured.

When a Salamander captain punches another commander it says allot about them. The salamanders are known to be the nicest chapter willing to respect all humans, just because that's their way.


Yeah but I just think it's really odd. They are so completely different to all other loyalist Chapters.

Looking at the evidence from White Dwarf 249, we know that they existed in the 32nd millenium so it's possible they are a 2nd founding Chapter from an unknown source so lets look at the possible sources of their geneseed:

Starting with the Loyalists:

The Blood Angels and their successors are basically portrayed as similar to the pre Angron War Hounds (or in the case of the Flesh Tearers almost identical to the butchers nails World Eaters). The MM's don't operate in this way and there is no evidence they suffer from the Black Rage or Red Thirst so we can rule out the Blood Angels.

The Ultramarines and their successors are a bit of a mix but all seem to be honourable and not self serving. We know the Mortifactors are one of the Chapters which has changed the most from their Ultramarines source but even so they are still honourable and not back stabbing. Equally the Doom Eagles are changed in their outlook but equally are honourable and not back stabbing. It's possible the MMs are descended from the Ultramarines but unlikely in my opinion.

The Space Wolves are loyal to each other like the wolves they think they are and there is no evidence in the stories about the MMs having fangs so I think we can rule the Wolves out.

The Salamanders? Well it's interesting we got to see a couple of nasty ones in one of the Sallies novels and these nasty ones did seem to bear a similarity to the MM but these seemed to be the bad apples as it were as the Sallies as a whole did not share this bad attitude.

The Raven Guard and their successors are a very interesting one for me. We know that Corax expelled several Nomad Predation fleets when he took over the XIX Legion. It's possible that like the Carcharodon Astra, the Marines Malevolent were another of theese. After all Corax didn't like their attitudes towards humanity and the modus operandi in warfare. It's not such a huge leap to imagine that one of the nomad predation fleets would be seen as an outcast by the Imperium and thus would resort to scavenging and their attitudes towards humanity would morph into a survival of the fittest mentality and they would turn on each other .

The White Scars are another interesting one simply as we don't know enough about them but from what we do know from Scars and Brotherhood of the Storm I just don't see the MMs as a successor Chapter of Jaghati.

Iron Hands - the MMs don't have the technical aptitude so I think this rules out the IHs and their successors.

Finally I just don't see the MMs as being a successor of the Imperial Fists. The Sons of Dorn simply have a radically different mindset.

The Traitor Legions:

Emperors Children - no similarities at all so I can't see them being a loyalist remnant.

Iron Warriors - the MMs don't seem to have the technical skills (as we see they don't seem to be able to repair their broken armour) so this seemingly would rule out the Iron Warriors.

Night Lords - Another prime contender. We've seen the pre heresy attitudes of the Night Lords towards both each other and humanity in general. We've never been given a description of a MM Marine without his helmet so we can't be certain if they have the pale skin etc of the Night Lords but the MMs seem to share their modus operandi.

World Eaters - These had me thinking. Pre butcher's nails could be a possibility but the likelihood of a loyalist remnant of the WE who don't have the nails (since there is no indication of the MMs having any form of the nails) is very small so I've had to rule them out.

Death Guard - It's possible that the MMs are a loyalist remnant of the DG. The DG cared little for collateral damage and got the job done using whatever means necessary. For me they are a maybe.

Thousand Sons - Absolutely not - no indication of psykers in the MMs.

Sons of Horus - Like the Death Guard there is a possibility the MMs are a loyalist remnant but their modus operandi isn't that similar. Again it's a maybe but less than the DG in my opinion.

Word Bearers - Absolutely not - we know that all loyalists were purged.

Alpha Legion - Who knows?? It's possible I suppose but the MMs modus operandi is very different to what little information is known about the AL. Then again if loyalist AL were trying to hide within the Imperium post Heresy then what better way to hide than to take on a mantle different to that of the original Legion. Over time their attitudes may have changed sufficiently to become that which they initially were only pretending to be. As with anything connected to the AL it's a maybe but we'll never know.

Going simply from the MM's modus operandi I can only see them being from 1 of 4 sources with the most likely (in my opinion) first :

Night Lords loyalists - the MMs share the NLs way of thinking.

Raven Guard via the Nomad Predation Fleet route

Death Guard loyalists

Alpha Legion loyalists

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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-15-15, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerachiel76 View Post
Night Lords - Another prime contender. We've seen the pre heresy attitudes of the Night Lords towards both each other and humanity in general. We've never been given a description of a MM Marine without his helmet so we can't be certain if they have the pale skin etc of the Night Lords but the MMs seem to share their modus operandi.
The timing of this discussion and the new NL short on the BL blog might almost seem deliberate. The quote below stood out for me, and it could apply equally well to the MM by the looks of it, so I think if they were a successor to a traitor legion, the NLs would be the most likely.

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It was said by many Imperial commanders that they didn’t work well with others, but the truth was a little more amusingly bleak.

The Night Lords scarcely worked well with each other.
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-15-15, 09:47 PM
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Excellent post, zerachiel.

Using the logic played out in your post, my own personal take would be to follow that of the Raven Guard nomad slant.


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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-16-15, 12:08 AM
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I like the Night Lords successor angle, but this could also be BL setting up a chapter for Heresy? The angle they're taking with the WH universe gives me the sense they're finally getting the gumption up to evolve their storylines.

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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-16-15, 09:00 AM
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The Ultramarines are probably a high posibilty considering how many chapters they are responsible for creating.

Salamanders and Wolves are highly unlikely, just due to the fact that Wolves haven't been able to make any chapters off Fenris and the Salamanders can't even keep a full strength chapter. And your right about the Blood Angels just being way to off to not notice genetic similarities.

I'm afraid I don't have any fluff about the Marines Malevolent, however if they have had any gene inefficiencies, it's possible they are from the Imperial Fists lineage. I'd be careful though about relating chapters to certain traits. The Imperial Fists successors are interestingly different, even when talking about the 3 main second founding. I would apply that to any chapter investigation really.

The Dark Angels, Iron Hands, and Ultramarines are considered the best genetic templates based off old White Dwarf articles and dare say codexes. So that would narrow it down a bit.

The Raven's though are a wild card. I have seriously never followed a successor chapter of theirs which is amazing, considering they should have a nice series from the Istvaan Survivors and help from the Emperor.
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-16-15, 09:35 AM
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They havent been described as having pasty faces. So unlikely to be Ravenguard successors, as their successors share the pasty face trait.

Edit:
The Dark Angels and their successors have always been very close knit, due to their shared secret. My bet is that they are an unremarkable ultramarines successor, that have severely deviated from their origin.

If they are an M32 founding, it stands to reason that they potentially could have come from a troublesome or rebellious chapter of the UMs that got let lose to get out of the hair of the UMs. Getting a chapter on the condition that they never bother their sire again.

Last edited by Brother Lucian; 07-16-15 at 09:42 AM.
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