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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-12-15, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Default Continuity confusion, minor.

i just finished reading betrayer and I am a little confused by the ending and the tense of the book.

Spoilers below;







At the end of Betrayer, we have Angron turned into a Daemon (prince?) and throughout the book, Lorgar mentions several times that the Butcher's Nails are killing him and will kill him. The tense is important and confusing.

Years ago I listened to an audiobook, which I no longer have and cannot find where Lorgar and Angron are fighting side by side which starts with Lorgar convinced against that the nails will kill Angron. But by the end of the audio, he seems to have had a vision or revelation of Angron's "Destiny" and openly reverses his position and tells Angron that he no longer thinks the nails will kill him, but doesn't share why, though we all know.

Nowhere in this Audiobook is Angron a Daemon Prince, so it must take place before Betrayer. But in Betrayer; the events of the audiobook are not referenced, though the events of other books are. Yet Lorgar is again concerned over the nails and telling Angron how they will kill him.

Note also that by the end of the book there is no hint of what will happen to Angron; or the measures Lorgar is taking to bring it about and then deal with it, besides that his senior tech Priest is forging the Black Blade for him.

So what is going on here? What am I missing? Continuity error? Screw-up? Other story that bridges the gap which I am missing?

Thanks for your time.
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-12-15, 04:15 PM
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It's been a while since I've read it, but I believe that Lorgar was lying to turn him into a Daemon Prince for lolchaus reasons.



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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-19-15, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
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It's been a while since I've read it, but I believe that Lorgar was lying to turn him into a Daemon Prince for lolchaus reasons.
yeah...I found Lorgar not to be all that convincing in either source.
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-19-15, 03:32 PM
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I think that butchers nails is supposed to happen during the events of betrayer. When I don't remember but the idea is that it's supposed to be lorgars push to daemon prince angron as that's his destiny.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-19-15, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
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I think that butchers nails is supposed to happen during the events of betrayer. When I don't remember but the idea is that it's supposed to be lorgars push to daemon prince angron as that's his destiny.
I wondered about that! I kept looking for a clue-in where butcher's nails would fit in.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-19-15, 06:22 PM
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I wondered about that! I kept looking for a clue-in where butcher's nails would fit in.
Doesn't it have a line somewhere in betrayer that says they fought eldar? It's been sometime since i read it but I was sure that was a thing.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-19-15, 09:35 PM Thread Starter
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It mentioned that Angron fought the Eldar on his homeworld as a child.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-20-15, 03:04 AM
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Butcher's Nails actually happens pre-Know No Fear while the Word Bearers and World Eaters are preparing worlds to bring about the Ruinstorm. That's why the initial confrontation occurs because Angron is attacking every world in sight rather than the specific ones needed for the Ruinstorm. This is detailed in HH5: Tempest.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-21-15, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
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Butcher's Nails actually happens pre-Know No Fear while the Word Bearers and World Eaters are preparing worlds to bring about the Ruinstorm. That's why the initial confrontation occurs because Angron is attacking every world in sight rather than the specific ones needed for the Ruinstorm. This is detailed in HH5: Tempest.
Okay, the placement makes sense, but not Lorgar's sense of knowledge. It didn't help that even in betrayer Lorgar seemed to remain convinced that the nails would kill Angron, but then had some revelation off-screen that led to him "Saving" angron by turning him into a DP. I mean; he had the chains forged and everything, but it was set up as a surprise.

Yet Butcher's nails ends with Lorgar realizing the nails won't kill Angron, even though he still seems convinced they will through most of Betrayer.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-22-15, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Marauderlegion View Post
Okay, the placement makes sense, but not Lorgar's sense of knowledge. It didn't help that even in betrayer Lorgar seemed to remain convinced that the nails would kill Angron, but then had some revelation off-screen that led to him "Saving" angron by turning him into a DP. I mean; he had the chains forged and everything, but it was set up as a surprise.

Yet Butcher's nails ends with Lorgar realizing the nails won't kill Angron, even though he still seems convinced they will through most of Betrayer.
I don't think the point was that he realized the nails wouldn't kill him.
Going into it he believed that there was nothing he could do about it. Removing them would kill him and leaving them in would continue the battle between the nails and angron trying to heal.

The main point is that the daemon prince wasn't his idea, the Eldar had a prophesy about it and lorgar heard it. That's what gave him the way to save angron.

It's a hard set up to get right, we know what is going to happen but how do you make it a surprise for the characters.
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