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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-01-15, 07:06 PM
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ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the info. =D
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-03-15, 06:46 AM Thread Starter
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Indeed current fluff has made Khorne one dimensional.

I guess a good question is whether Sanguinus would have really been the best avatar for Khorne, or whether it was simply Khorne trying to extend his reach with another good warrior. Is there a difference between mindless bloodshed and one who truly naturally loves it?

It was something I was trying to create with a Khorne army a few months ago. A concept of a purity of Khorne. There are those who follow the Chaos gods with a very simplistic and fanatical concept of their deity. However, in this case, I really wonder if Khorne is or is not a more complex identity of the warp. The warp has been described as so complicated that it can never really be understood. As such, it just seems strange that Khorne be the "Blood God" and thats pretty much it.

Thats kind of what I took from bits and pieces from what I have seen written about in the next codex. The fact that Kharn wasn't in the codex, hinted to me that his use of Khorne to be very one dimensional. I mean... its fricken Kharn, the representative of Khorne in the 40k gaming world for the last couple decades.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-03-15, 07:34 AM
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As for any chaos gods, in GW lore, they are almost always portrayed in the easyest way to be understood. Also, never forget the average target customer is a 13-14 yo. I can't imagine a way simple enough to let him understand Tzeentch or Slaanesh unless using monothematic statical images. However, if we sum all the fluff and lore and hints we gets during the 40 years of GW history, we pretty much have a clear vision of Khorne as a violent, proud, contemptuous, angry, martial god. A sort of Mitra on meth. Is he the Blood God? Well, hell yes, it is. Is he the Warrior God? Hell yes. Is he the Collector of Skulls? Yes! Of all the more "subtle" aspects, however, in a grimdark and brutal galaxy, where a starship can obliterate a continent, the "Blood God" seems the most easy to worship and comprehend. KILL MAIM BURN!! In the end, it all goes down to that.
(in that...isn't Khorne, on his brazen throne, a sort of mockery of the Emperor? He wants skulls for his throne, while emperor wants psykers...both demand endless carnage of their enemies...funny thought...)

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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-03-15, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Kreuger View Post
The fluff on Khorne has become increasingly one dimensional over the years. In the original realms of Chaos: slaves to darkness Khorne was a war god. His armies included heavy weapons and more varied tactics. Since then Khorne has become a singular god of mindless bloodshed.

I think the savage war god was a more interesting and compelling background piece, but the fluff as I know it doesn't support your reading. Khorne armies are described as wild disorganized mobs of murderers. They might have the presence of mind before a battle to do some planning, but once they are engaged thought goes out the window.

Of course, this also raises questions about how an army of bloodthirsty madmen could manage the complicated army logistics needed to run a campaign of any sort. Looks like a logical fallacy to me.

But hey, this is where we are now.
If you take away the hamfisted GW Fluff approach (Slaanesh are all Perverts, Tzeentch are all nerdy kids who eventually snap from being bullied and go all Columbine and say "Just as planned", and Nurgle is the neckbeards popping their infected hair follicles), and instead look on it similar to the whole Primal Force like the Black Library Heresy series tried to put over, then Khorne turns from Crazed Madman to humanity reverting to its base instincts, its fight for survival, the person who'll fight with whatever he has to hand to survive, whether it's a chainaxe, broken bottle, hand or tooth or even a big rock, Nurgle is the fear of death and all the images that brings up; while Slaanesh is the sheer pleasure of life, and Tzeentch is the interaction of fate and chance and their intertwining nature in humanities life; especially in an age where science and logic is beginning to slowly replace the grip of ~15,000 years of superstition and belief in Skywizards.

Instead we get "oh he's tough, oh he's strong, oh he's fast, oh he's magical".

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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-05-15, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by GuiltySparc View Post
....Supplies for the supplies god!!
Best quote I've heard in ages!!!! Khorne cares not where the supplies come from, only that the supplies flow!

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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-05-15, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
If you take away the hamfisted GW Fluff approach...
While I haven't read any of the Black Library books the more nuanced view of the chaos gods, and the mortal emotions which feed them is certainly out there. I think I have around a dozen chaos army books from the last 20 years of fantasy and 40K, and I'm positive some of them have this style writing.

Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
Instead we get "oh he's tough, oh he's strong, oh he's fast, oh he's magical".
This is exactly what I was referencing and I agree 100%. Over the years GW have simplified the fluff a great deal.
Hmm. Maybe it's more fair to say the chaos fluff diverged, the fluff in the codices continued to be simplified while they made the fluff in the Liber Chaotica deeper. Of course most gamers don't have those books of chaos.
So that leaves most most fluff and most people's understandings set to "ham fisted and one dimensional."
A pity.

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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-06-15, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Kreuger View Post
So that leaves most most fluff and most people's understandings set to "ham fisted and one dimensional."
A pity.
Absolutely. I do wish GW would put more time into the Fluff, but within the BL books there are very good and much more in depth looks at, well everything.

But back to the topic, I found the Fluff of the Codex:Deamonkin not to be that bad, at least it was on the same level as the whole current generation of Codex. And to be honest Codex's have been quite devoid of Fluff since 3rd edition.

I liked how they made them different from Codex Chaos Marines and how they described the organisation of Khorns Legions, and how the Slaugtercults are reflections of that organisation.

As for Logistics. Enternal War is Enternal Looting.

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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-15, 10:31 PM
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Does anyone else find the number of Bloodthirsters rather absurd?

Yes the realms of chaos are vast but 8 + (8x8) + (8x8x8) + (8x8x8x8) + (8x8x8x8x8) + (8x8x8x8x8x8) + (8x8x8x8x8x8x8) + (8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8) = 19,173,960 which is around 19 for every imperial world. Assuming most of them are not interested in interacting with the galaxy, that's still a tad over the top, particularly with the uncountable Daemon Princes of Khorne as well...

I don't think whoever came up with this bit of lore had a calculator handy.
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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-10-15, 05:04 AM
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Regarding the logistics of Khornate armies, deus ex machine is very much a thing in Warhammer 40k. Space Hulks, for instance, are vessels that technically are just drifting around in an unguided fashion, until they eventually arrive at an Imperial system to unload whatever horrors they are carrying. Orks make their technology (such as it is) work by force of will.

Given this, nothing about a Khornate frigate somehow chugging along despite any meaningful maintenance having been done to it in ten millennia (save for the plugging up of hull breaches with skulls and/or thrones) until it finally reaches an Imperial planet shocks me.
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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-19-15, 08:00 PM
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I think the depiction of the Sanguinary Worlds' culture in the Gaunt's Ghosts series sheds some interesting light on the subject of how Chaos worship affects Chaos armies. Even though they all openly worship the Chaos gods (Khorne in particular with the Blood Pact), it doesn't seem like they're all running around completely insane or anything. They have an extremely well functioning logistical system (one that makes extensive use of daemons to move supplies from Point A to Point B), and their greatest military units are so effective because of how well disciplined they are. They might be crazy, but not crazy enough to commit tactical suicide by refusing to utilize ranged weapons.

Even the way they're depicted in a non-military sense breaks with what we usually imagine of Chaos. In the Gaunt's Ghosts novels, occupied Gerreon certainly isn't the best place in the galaxy to live, but it's not like everyone is getting rounded up and murdered constantly. Life kind of goes on; you keep the same crappy job you had before, except now you're working for the glory of Khorne instead of the Emperor. If you keep your head down you'll be left alone. Show up for church once a week, make a show of piety, and then leave, that kind of thing.

All that leads me to wonder if MAYBE the Chaos Space Marines only worship the way they do is because of the whole "built for war" thing. Warfare is the only reason they exist, so it makes sense that the only aspects of the Chaos gods that matter to them is the "tough" or "fast" or "magicky" or "strong" parts. Whereas your "normal" Chaos-worshipping world probably venerates different aspects of the gods (Khorne as a noble warrior, Slaanesh as an artist, Tzeentch as a wise prophet, Nurgle as a loving parental figure), if all you ever do is shoot people in the face with a bolter, you're naturally going to have a one-dimensional view of whatever gods you worship.

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