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Should Guilliman return to 40k?

  • YES!

    Votes: 49 63.6%
  • HELL NO!

    Votes: 28 36.4%

Would you like to see guilliman return to 40k?

30K views 242 replies 47 participants last post by  Brother Lucian 
#1 ·
After hinting on another thread that guilliman may return, a few people commeted saying very interesting things. I think guilliman returning is just what 40k needs. Someone mentioned he would start his own great crusade which is a wonderful idea! So gents, what do you think?
 
#148 ·
Please, Vulkan's as full of himself as any others, thinking he's much better because he gives a shit about humanity - from our point of view that's fine, but he might as well give a shit about all the ants he's standing on when he walks for all the good that is - it is self aggrandisement and he's too stupid to realise (or rather, Kyme's writing of him is - notice that there's barely been anyone else to write about him other than that terrible book "The Unremembered Empire" which was trying to collate the stories together, and came across as little more than flowery minute notes on a Horus Heresy boardroom meeting).

Angron's a selfish little wench, and Russ feels free to act as if he's the Emperor's own right hand, interpreting orders however he feels. They are all full of themselves, and fanboyism is nothing to do with it.

Curze is the one outlier in the sense that he is breaking the fourth wall/lampshading almost to the extent of "I am the greatest! I am a cunt as well, but I am the greatest at being a cunt as well, and I do not care. Mother fuckers. And my legion? They're bellends too. Whatcha gonna do about it?" That (and Sevatar (you'll never guess how I got here/the rats did it, are the two greatest lines I have ever read in a warhammer novel) is what makes the Night Lords unique, and among the most interesting legions in 30k. The Alpha Legion are pretty much the definition of arrogance, where their tactics and drawn out style of warfare is done "just because they can" - Rowboat himself decrying that their need to make a statement costing them valuable time in the great crusade. That's egotistical bar none - but then again, according to the perceived pomposity of the Ultra's Primarch, that wouldn't have come across.

In short, we get opinionated views only. Saying one is more valid than the other is ridiculous, and saying "I don't believe you because you're a fanboy" is ad hominem and one of the biggest fallacies of debating, discredicting all you can say. Ask for quotes to back it up.

So, we get opinionated views, or we don't - those who have no agenda either way will not offer an opinion on them. One who has fought alongside them might have his opinion coloured on them in a way that was a result of the fighting - similar to how Curze and Vulkan have a feud.

In regards to the Ultra's losses - they weren't "defeats" in that they were able to take such losses and fight back. I'd struggle to see another legion, take such losses and psychological hits as they suffered, and come back fighting - the Alpha Legion, Death Guard and maybe a Horus led Sons of Horus out of the ones we have had a bit of insight into. Maybe a Dorn led Imperial Fists. We've not had enough information on the Dark Angels to make a statement over; but Blood Angels I think would struggle (prone to melancholy), World Eaters, while wouldn't give a shit could be pocketed and isolated and destroyed peicemeal, Iron Hands similar, Salamanders I personally feel lack he required "stuff/mentality" to be able to come out victorious in such a situation. Night Lords, and Raven Guard would probably bug out as soon as possible - maybe commiting a guerilla war in return, but would struggle to mount an effective counter attack. Emperor's Children - they tend to go to pieces if their whole perfect strike thing doesn't go to plan, pretty much the ultimate glass cannon. Iron Warriors, seem to work best with having everything in order, and don't seem to do well with unexpected situations. The White Scars own autonomy would see them similar to the Night Lords/Raven Guard, I think.

Due to how Horus is, I think he'd be able to muster an effectively brutal counter attack, the Alpha Legion are fairly autonomous in their entire outlook - if they didn't already know about it due to their layers-on-layers-shrek-is-love-shrek-is-life like plans and contingencies would have something ready for it. The Death Guard are just notoriously resilient and are used to taking extremely horrific casualties and then coming back and winning after expending the enemy's will to fight. Dorn's fists under him - well, defending is his thing. Regrouping to the next strongpoint, and defensive counters/sallies, he could sap the strength and channel them into where he wishes them to go.



 
#157 ·
The Space Wolf novels of Bill Kings era are effectively retconned and ignored. The game and story has has advanced 12 years since then. Similar to how the rest of William Kings work has been forgotten and ignored in all but the spirit - Gotrek and Felix has a wibbly wobbly timey wimey moment - which soon turned around when it was just completely ignored by the continuation writers (although admittedly, I've not read much after the original run of books - after reading a review of Zombieslayer I kind of flipped shit), the Shadow-point and Execution Hour novels regarding the Gothic War contain information which is frequently countered in new fluff.

If you're willing to count such old fluff, you can count Sigmar as the lost Primarch, Chaos Space Marines in Warhammer Fantasy, Space Marines using Eldar weaponry, the Necrons were similar the galaxies version of a super effective Norton antivirus (everything a virus, but this time, it actually manages to defeat them), the C'Tan themselves could take the battlefield, Genestealer cults actually occur (these have been squatted - there's no mention of them IIRC in the latest nid dex' since perhaps 4th, if not 3rd edition)...

In regards to defining someone as plain - they can't be defined as "plain". Either they're lacking a description, instead relying on their job or role or actions to define themselves, in as much as their name and equipment (might as well call the guy with the Heavy Bolter "the Heavy" as near enough in every book, he's the same character with the same outlook and attitude, only a different name and appearance to make him different), same for "melee guy", and "sergeant", and "the cherry", and "the old timer", and "mr flash", or whatever other bank job tvtropes trawl you can come up with. Every once in a while we might get "Magnificent Bastard" (Sevatar), or someone else who makes a defining character, but as for appearances, they're pretty much limited to the differences in the armour, or from a human perspective - where all they can see is the armour, or how that all of the space marines share the same appearance - and their abnormal difference from humans.

Read Brothers of the Snake - it is one which makes a bit of a point about that, where the Astartes land on a planet and the human administrator says that they all look the same, but that Priad wonders how she can say that when one is tall and thin, one is stocky, etc, but short of opinionated point of view characters, we don't get that.

Mostly, when it's regarding something beautiful or disgusting, it's to make the reader know about the things they're killing - whether it's the lithe, beautiful daemonette, or the puking monstrosity of a plague marine. Very rarely is beautiful used in any term in 40K literature.

That a human would consider a Primarch to be beautiful says a lot - there's a lot of psychological research which has gone into love and attraction - and simply put in a pithy sound bite, power attracts - and there are few more powerful than a Primarch. For someone to spend so much time around them, they are going to be open to having more than professional thoughts - such as more about how they're acting thinking etc. You don't need to be the most beautiful looking person to fall in love, but the opinion of one who is in love is going to ignore percieved cultural "flaws" and see it as a thing of beauty - i.e Scars, or piercings, or tattoos, or beards, oddly coloured eyes, etc. If you fancy someone who is a 6/10, then when you fancy them, your opinion is that they're an 8.

What I find notable though is that a Primarch, who is to a Space Marine what an Astartes is to a woman can quite easily see a height difference, especially when booted and suited of maybe twice the height of a small human (perfect height, giggity). In the literature, most space marines are noted as being ugly, with lumpen, mishapen heads, overly broad and packed with slabs of muscle - maybe along the lines of something like Kai Greene



If you make him another 2 foot taller and twice as wide, with a fused ribcage, implanted subcutaneous (as I understand it) Black Carapace which (again, as I understand it) is capable of withstanding the impact of a bullet (similar to maybe today's lighter bullet proof vests in resistance, so not capable of preventing an assault rifle/armour piercing, but lighter rounds and preventing damage to internals from already slowed down shots. Bear in mind Kai Greene is in Bodybuilding for aesthetics, so will have built his body around the ideal of what is considered good lucking - so there will be mirroring and obviously a vast diet and supplement regime to keep him in shape to show off the striations and muscle valleys in the body.

A Primarch, on the other hand, is going to have been created in the image of the emperor, and vat grown - they are going to be far more human than an astartes is. A 10 ft tall human, yes, but a human nonetheless (look at Fulgrim on the cover of the Primarch's, for example). They are going to have an immense physique - with maybe the exception of the rotten body of Mortarion - but not necessarily one which is probably human - more akin to a supermodel crossed with an ultrafit special forces soldier, rather than a bodybuilder. Vulkan will have had the packed muscle of a blacksmith, of course, Angron that of a Gladiator (although because hollywood, is more likely to be ripped, than the fat gladiators of history).

These are not sourced, of course - just my own reasoned guesstimations of something that will not be written about because at the end of the day, most 30-40k novels are aimed at luddite levels of intelligence to appeal to broadest audience with bolter porn.
 
#156 ·
So the whole Guilliman taking charge vs. the paranoid leaders of the imperium. Since this is all opinionated fluff anyways (seeded from facts that we've read about in the novels). I'd personally believe that they'd use Guilliman to the best of their ability to defend the imperium 'their asses', then if the coast is clear they all backstab him and try to return to their pompous lives, though possibly having created a Civil War following the death of one of the Emperor's Primarchs.

You can't say that this wouldn't happen, cuz none of the outcomes stated yet have actually happened :p, but I'm personally a fan of the whole Braveheart 'betrayal' story. Also regardless of Guilliman 'rallying' all of the space marine chapters, I know my Crimson Fists XIth Company would join him, as it is the Emperor's will.
 
#167 ·
So the whole Guilliman taking charge vs. the paranoid leaders of the imperium. Since this is all opinionated fluff anyways (seeded from facts that we've read about in the novels). I'd personally believe that they'd use Guilliman to the best of their ability to defend the imperium 'their asses', then if the coast is clear they all backstab him and try to return to their pompous lives, though possibly having created a Civil War following the death of one of the Emperor's Primarchs.
I don't think Guilliman coming back would be useable by the High Lords, because I don't think Guilliman's going to have any interest in saving the Imperium's bacon. A resurrected Guilliman is going to have one look at the state of the Imperium and then say "Screw You. Got Mine." Ultramar is in good shape, especially relative to the rest of the Imperium, and it's always been his top priority. Imperium Secondous, mark two.

No....there's NO possibility of it. The surviving traitor primarchs are DEMONS fully, in order for that to occur the chaos gods would have to remove their blessings and actively restore them to their former glory.
There's also the fact that none of the 'traitors' want to come back, or have any reason to. They weren't trapped or tricked, they fell by design and ascended on purpose. You can't be redeemed if you haven't done anything wrong.
 
#158 · (Edited)
Have you seen any picture or model of any Imperial Space Marine you can say is butt-ugly Vaz? The closest I come is that Grey Knight in the ehm fanomical Lord Inquisitor (they went a bit overboard with the black cerapace) and the aforementioned Haegr. The rest seems to be damn handsome men, and I'm not sure if I'm willing to retcon the work of William King, but that's your opinion and I will pretend I respect it.
 
#159 · (Edited)
Dude, it's a free world, if you want to look at pictures of "handsome men", feel free.

See, I can be a cunt too. Now, pipe the fuck down.

In regards to artwork, they have to be appealing, unless they're intentionally not meant to - such as Orks, or Daemon infused Giger-inspired artwork of Chaos. They're a caricature, and a sales

Unless by the rest of the art, you mean that each space marine is around 14 ft tall (twice the height of the Eldar, which is typically larger than a human).



If you want to call into the case of "artwork" you will recognise that the majority of artwork usually concerns of an outsourced artist making a cool picture to sell a book.

Or what about this?




Or this one? Those shoulder pads are fucking amazing. So good that you can only see dead ahead. Fucking good one mate.

Sit down.

I'm going from the reactions of people in the books. Meanwhile, you're going off a hired artists interpretation.

I mean I don't know about you, but this;


Is hardly "beautiful" sanguinius.









Case in point?

Like I said, sit down.



 
#160 ·
Lets see
I find that one anything but ugly. He has most of the heroic stuff a hero should have.

Heroic build much


And let see Primarch
quite handsome, almost angelic.

Another one.
maybe not that handsome but a certian wild appeal.

But I see your points. Not every Space Marine is a handsome thingy even if on the Imperial side.

Same with the Primarches. I just scrolled through some. Ew came to mind.
 
#161 ·
So, Sanguinius is pretty. We know that. The art says that (although the feminine nose and sticky-out ears are kind of un"sexy"). As for Russ being "handsome", gonna call bullshit on that.

The only one with anything like is the Ultramarine. Ventris. And considering the rest of the proportions of the body is probably the equivalent of some astartes thalidomide baby.

Try again.



 
#163 ·
Went from wanting a primarch to return (or not) to whether or not space marines are pretty marines? Fucking love this site.

Anyway, as far as the original topic goes, I'm of two minds about it. On one hand it would be cool to see the shakeup that would occur and the possible issues concerning the high lord's. On the other, I'd be worried that it could be handled poorly; don't just want Papa Smurf to stomp in and everything be sunshine and rainbows.
 
#165 ·
Long story short, I would love to see a primarch come back and actually make a difference. I dont really want it to be roboute but heck it'd be cool. I would love to see a traitor primarch redeemed though honestly. I think it would be neat to see one of them cast off the shackles of chaos and fight back. Or just allow the alpha legion and their twin primarchs to show their true colors....it's been long enough
 
#166 ·
I think it would be neat to see one of them cast off the shackles of chaos and fight back.
No....there's NO possibility of it. The surviving traitor primarchs are DEMONS fully, in order for that to occur the chaos gods would have to remove their blessings and actively restore them to their former glory. Generally when a Demon Prince loses their blessing they are absorbed by chaos god, unless they have enough worshipers to be able to sustain themselves.
 
#170 ·
Considering the necessity of the astronomicon and the extragalactic threats that he's going to have to deal with, I don't see Guilliman being that short sighted. He's going to know that he can't hold on his own and he's going to know he cannot, under any circumstances, allow Terra to fall. That means he's going have to come to an agreement with Terra or conquer it. If it's the latter than he's going to need to conquer the area between Cadian and Terra because he can't let Abaddon the traitor legions bust through the gate. Really, there's no way he just says "fuck this, I'm out." Just isn't going to happen.
 
#175 ·
I'd be down to see Guilliman conquer Terra! That'd be one awesome story! Despite not making much sense as the argument is currently between joining forces to become stronger, or not joining forces so he can consolidate his resources. Throwing resources away on both sides would be counter productive :p

Also, despite it being impossible to un-demonize yourself as mentioned previously. I would personally like to see the thousand sons redeemed, there story is a bit sad. I'm sure there is a way, seeing as it is a story of fantasy novels and anything is possible :p
 
#184 ·
This is a complex topic. I'm of mixed feelings as to how Guilliman would be received. There are a few things worth remembering:

1. According to the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman was one of the first High Lords of Terra, and held the office of Lord Commander of the Imperium - the one individual who ever controlled the totality of the Imperium's military forces (other than the Emperor, of course). If this is indeed true, Roboute Guilliman was never divested of his office.

2. The Ultramarines and their Successors comprise two thirds of the Adeptus Astartes. Recent fluff has pointed to the comraderie that exists these Chapters along blood-lines. If these Successors would be so quick to rally to the side of Marneus Calgar, would they not also rally to Guilliman?

3. Roboute Guilliman is not just a general. In the theocratic dystopia that the Imperium has become, he is venerated as a demigod saint. I'm willing to wager that Roboute Guilliman is infinitely more famous to the quadrillions of humans across the galaxy than the High Lords of Terra - whose names are probably not even known.

All of this leads me to think that, however paranoid and bellicose, the High Lords would not turn against Guilliman by default. To court civil war with even half of the Adeptus Astartes is to invite destruction for the entire Imperium. They can't afford to waste battle fleets and army groups to make war on hundreds of Chapters across the galaxy. They can't afford the mass dissension that turning their back on the Imperium's equivalent of Saint George or an Archangel would invite.

On the other hand, one might also do well to consider the perceived benefits that Guilliman's return might bring to the High Lords of Terra.

Presently, the Adeptus Astartes are an organization that exists outside of most of the Imperium's laws. They are largely autonomous. News of their existence is generally limited to reports submitted by Inquisitors and officers of the Astra Militarum who have observed them on the field. Their obeisance is limited to answering the call for specific campaigns (and even then, there is a great degree of leeway involved) and providing a geneseed tithe. They answer to no one where their day-to-day campaigning is concerned.

Much of this is because the Adeptus Astartes never recognized an authority beyond their own primarchs and the Emperor. Indeed, as Lord Commander of the Imperium, Guilliman may have been the only individual to be able to command all Chapters after the Scouring. Imagine if, through Guilliman, the High Lords were able to finally rein in the Adeptus Astartes.

And of course, a lot of this comes down on when Guilliman returns. I mean, if the primarch comes back during, say, the high point of Solar Macharius's conquests, I agree that the High Lords may very well think that they're better off without a demigod super-genius to boss them around.

But what if Guilliman returns a few months into, say, M42, as Abaddon the Despoiler is burning the Imperium well and good? Are we correct in being so quick to dismiss the possibility of Guilliman's return being hailed as a miracle? I think any loyal primarch at would be invited to take a seat of prominence.
 
#185 ·
This is a complex topic. I'm of mixed feelings as to how Guilliman would be received. There are a few things worth remembering:

1. According to the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman was one of the first High Lords of Terra, and held the office of Lord Commander of the Imperium - the one individual who ever controlled the totality of the Imperium's military forces (other than the Emperor, of course). If this is indeed true, Roboute Guilliman was never divested of his office.

2. The Ultramarines and their Successors comprise two thirds of the Adeptus Astartes. Recent fluff has pointed to the comraderie that exists these Chapters along blood-lines. If these Successors would be so quick to rally to the side of Marneus Calgar, would they not also rally to Guilliman?

1. That's pretty amazing. Where can I get more info on that? You may have something there.

2. I strongly suspect that the Codex Astartes was never meant to be taken as it has been and the way the Ultramarine successors cooperate and keep close ties seems to support the idea, at least in my mind, that the second founding was intended as something of a shellgame to assuage the fears of certain individuals. It is also to be noted that the collective Unforgiven and perhaps others form a sort of shadow legion as well, though without apparent recourse to any of the high-level legion assets they once had. I basically agree with your assessment that most of the UM successors would rally behind RG if he came back.
 
#189 ·
Its from the short story Rules of Engagement found in the Age of Darkness anthology. Ventanus uses the fledgling codex astartes to great effect against most of the enemies he faces but ultimately could not win and Guilliman claims that his codex was only meant as a guideline.
 
#206 ·
You are taking your aggreivance with the 'fanbois' (the fuck are you, 12?) With those having a rational discussion using facts as presented to us in a fantasy world, not to mention the facts as is. Very blinkered.

And honestly mate, being a 'mirrorer' just turns you into a right little knob. You have to earn or take your respect. You have done neither. Go take out your prepubescent frustations on a titty rag and let adults talk. Essentially, you are borderline trolling.



 
#208 ·
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

Rowboat Girlypants in 40k.
 
#209 ·
So I just got here, and this is crazy,

But the primarchs seemed pretty useless in the absence of their Emperor.

So just make new ones... maybe?

At this point I would imagine there are far more qualified people in the woodwork, just waiting for a chance to actually lead and/or make a difference. Unless Guilliman is a flat out astronomical genius, then honestly he seems irrelevant. He'd have 10,000 years of catching up to do, and his Ultramarines would be but one chapter, give or take those offshoots that are intensely loyal. The bureaucracy he helped put into place would no doubt buck his every initiative, and if pressed, could cause another civil war.
 
#210 ·
welcome to the fray. Guilliman is in all senses of the word, an astronomical genius. His mind is that of 100 supercomputers. I think he would catch up very quickly, and honestly, theres not alot to catch up on. He would have to re write some combat doctrines on some new foes, and slap the high lords around a bit, but tech wise theres nothing new.
 
#222 ·
Honestly I can never get why people think Guilliman would fly into a rage if he saw that the Ultramarines strictly adhere to the codex. After all, it wasn't widely known that he intended for the codex to be a guideline (he had to tell Ventanus that in person when the former couldn't get why strictly following the codex led to failure.)

Thousands of years of misinterpretation, on top of all the other changes since his time, doesn't seem that far fetched really.
 
#224 ·
The ultramarines had 10 000 years to fall. Right now even free thinking is prohibited in that chapter.

While Guilliman was a master of logistics he also had the ability to improvise.

Aside from Ventris, Telion, Titus, and Sicarious maybe, none of the ultramarines are capable of independent thinking.
 
#223 ·
Just makes me chuckle is all.

"You did what with my Legion...?!" :shok:
 
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