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View Poll Results: Should Guilliman return to 40k?
YES! 51 64.56%
HELL NO! 28 35.44%
Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

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post #181 of 243 (permalink) Old 10-11-14, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Marauderlegion View Post
I mean to me, it makes sense thematically that at the end-times the living primarchs should return. All of them.
Well it would, if the the theme wasn't that humanity is doomed. 40k isn't the story of how mankind bounces back from the brink, it's the story of how mankind dies by inches. It's not the story of a messiah figure returning to usher in a new golden age, that was 30k. The last hope of humanity has already failed.

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post #182 of 243 (permalink) Old 10-11-14, 03:47 AM
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It's a device hidden below a mountain with unknown potential. All we know is that it can act as a beacon, a com device and a teleporter, who knows what else it can do.
Regardless of its capabilities, in all likelihood it's probably (no guarantee either way at the moment) lost to the Imperium since the world that housed it was overrun by the Tyranids back in 992.M41.
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post #183 of 243 (permalink) Old 10-11-14, 11:21 AM
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Well it would, if the the theme wasn't that humanity is doomed. 40k isn't the story of how mankind bounces back from the brink, it's the story of how mankind dies by inches. It's not the story of a messiah figure returning to usher in a new golden age, that was 30k. The last hope of humanity has already failed.

You may well be right.

But I meant more in terms of the game being *WAR*Hammer-40K; it's all about massive wars, right? Some kind of slight setting change from just before the apocalyptic war they've always threatened, to the apocalyptic war would be cool.
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post #184 of 243 (permalink) Old 10-19-14, 12:30 AM
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This is a complex topic. I'm of mixed feelings as to how Guilliman would be received. There are a few things worth remembering:

1. According to the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman was one of the first High Lords of Terra, and held the office of Lord Commander of the Imperium - the one individual who ever controlled the totality of the Imperium's military forces (other than the Emperor, of course). If this is indeed true, Roboute Guilliman was never divested of his office.

2. The Ultramarines and their Successors comprise two thirds of the Adeptus Astartes. Recent fluff has pointed to the comraderie that exists these Chapters along blood-lines. If these Successors would be so quick to rally to the side of Marneus Calgar, would they not also rally to Guilliman?

3. Roboute Guilliman is not just a general. In the theocratic dystopia that the Imperium has become, he is venerated as a demigod saint. I'm willing to wager that Roboute Guilliman is infinitely more famous to the quadrillions of humans across the galaxy than the High Lords of Terra - whose names are probably not even known.

All of this leads me to think that, however paranoid and bellicose, the High Lords would not turn against Guilliman by default. To court civil war with even half of the Adeptus Astartes is to invite destruction for the entire Imperium. They can't afford to waste battle fleets and army groups to make war on hundreds of Chapters across the galaxy. They can't afford the mass dissension that turning their back on the Imperium's equivalent of Saint George or an Archangel would invite.

On the other hand, one might also do well to consider the perceived benefits that Guilliman's return might bring to the High Lords of Terra.

Presently, the Adeptus Astartes are an organization that exists outside of most of the Imperium's laws. They are largely autonomous. News of their existence is generally limited to reports submitted by Inquisitors and officers of the Astra Militarum who have observed them on the field. Their obeisance is limited to answering the call for specific campaigns (and even then, there is a great degree of leeway involved) and providing a geneseed tithe. They answer to no one where their day-to-day campaigning is concerned.

Much of this is because the Adeptus Astartes never recognized an authority beyond their own primarchs and the Emperor. Indeed, as Lord Commander of the Imperium, Guilliman may have been the only individual to be able to command all Chapters after the Scouring. Imagine if, through Guilliman, the High Lords were able to finally rein in the Adeptus Astartes.

And of course, a lot of this comes down on when Guilliman returns. I mean, if the primarch comes back during, say, the high point of Solar Macharius's conquests, I agree that the High Lords may very well think that they're better off without a demigod super-genius to boss them around.

But what if Guilliman returns a few months into, say, M42, as Abaddon the Despoiler is burning the Imperium well and good? Are we correct in being so quick to dismiss the possibility of Guilliman's return being hailed as a miracle? I think any loyal primarch at would be invited to take a seat of prominence.
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post #185 of 243 (permalink) Old 10-19-14, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
This is a complex topic. I'm of mixed feelings as to how Guilliman would be received. There are a few things worth remembering:

1. According to the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman was one of the first High Lords of Terra, and held the office of Lord Commander of the Imperium - the one individual who ever controlled the totality of the Imperium's military forces (other than the Emperor, of course). If this is indeed true, Roboute Guilliman was never divested of his office.

2. The Ultramarines and their Successors comprise two thirds of the Adeptus Astartes. Recent fluff has pointed to the comraderie that exists these Chapters along blood-lines. If these Successors would be so quick to rally to the side of Marneus Calgar, would they not also rally to Guilliman?

1. That's pretty amazing. Where can I get more info on that? You may have something there.

2. I strongly suspect that the Codex Astartes was never meant to be taken as it has been and the way the Ultramarine successors cooperate and keep close ties seems to support the idea, at least in my mind, that the second founding was intended as something of a shellgame to assuage the fears of certain individuals. It is also to be noted that the collective Unforgiven and perhaps others form a sort of shadow legion as well, though without apparent recourse to any of the high-level legion assets they once had. I basically agree with your assessment that most of the UM successors would rally behind RG if he came back.
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post #186 of 243 (permalink) Old 10-19-14, 01:48 AM
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Perfect is not the word I would use to describe it. Also for anyone not familiar, it is never stated that it can heal 'any wound of any individual', only that it is apparently able to have slightly healed an Astsrtes captain who is in stasis, one who I might add is horrifically wounded, but not dead on entry to the stasis field. Guilliman was dead when interred, it states it enough, but I know people here will continue to argue it, so never mind that for now.

As it stands, the healing effects of the Heart of Iron, is almost entirely unknown, there is nothing to say that it would have continued to heal the captain, or what type of wounds it can, and certainly nothing about what it could do with a Primarch physiology, which is even more distant from an Astartes to ours.
I think you're ignoring the hilarious angle: that the venom on Fulgrim's sword offsets the Iron Heart, dooming Guilliman to an eternal state of healing, since that artifact only works in stasis...

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Dark Angels - Thramas Crusade would have taken quite a toll, like the Wolves, casualties securing the Sol system, then huge chunk of the Legion turn on them.
Not that I disagree with your larger point, but, point of fact, the Lion himself considers his legion to be whole as of "Savage Weapons".

Where the treasonous Dark Angels are concerned, "By the Lion's Hand" has Corswain assume that Caliban holds about as many Space Marines as I calculated (using the figures Zahariel provides in Fallen Angels) Luther could produce in the amount of time that has passed so far: roughly 20,000 (my own guesstimate was a little less than 22,000). Assuming Belath and his Chapter (whom Corswain sends back to Caliban to collect what he assumes to be 20,000 loyal Dark Angels) are wiped out, I imagine it's less Luther's numerical power that results in horrific losses for the loyalists than the element of surprise. Although, even then, the ending of The Lion at least hints that El'Jonson knows something's afoot in Caliban.
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post #187 of 243 (permalink) Old 10-19-14, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Marauderlegion View Post
1. That's pretty amazing. Where can I get more info on that? You may have something there.
It's a very short blurb in the old 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines:

Quote:
What happened next is a tribute to the skills and foresight of a very few powerful men, not least to the Ultramarines' Primarch Roboute Guilliman. A council was formed of the twelve most powerful individuals in the Imperium. They called themselves the High Lords of Terra, and their self-proclaimed role was to rule the Imperium on behalf of the Emperor.

History does not record the names of those first High Lords. Indeed, there are few records of the early centuries of the Imperium. History and legend remain strangely intertwined, describing in almost mythic terms the dark and desperate times that followed the defeat of Horus. However, the tradition of the Ultramarines relates that their Primarch, Roboute Guilliman, was one of these High Lords. He became Lord Commander of the Imperium, the first to carry that title and the only man ever to command the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces.
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Last edited by Phoebus; 10-19-14 at 02:14 AM.
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post #188 of 243 (permalink) Old 10-19-14, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Marauderlegion View Post
1. That's pretty amazing. Where can I get more info on that? You may have something there.

2. I strongly suspect that the Codex Astartes was never meant to be taken as it has been and the way the Ultramarine successors cooperate and keep close ties seems to support the idea, at least in my mind, that the second founding was intended as something of a shellgame to assuage the fears of certain individuals. It is also to be noted that the collective Unforgiven and perhaps others form a sort of shadow legion as well, though without apparent recourse to any of the high-level legion assets they once had. I basically agree with your assessment that most of the UM successors would rally behind RG if he came back.
It wasn't, Guilliman himself stated.
Quote:
‘But your teachings…’ ‘Are yet flawed,’ said Guilliman. ‘No one, not even one such as I, can anticipate every possible outcome of battle. My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed. There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield. You and I both know how one spark of heroism can turn the tide of battle. That knowledge and personal experience can only be earned in blood, and the leader in the field must always be the ultimate arbiter of what course of action should be followed.’
I don't remember where it's from having trouble finding the source, but the point is the codex was supposed to be guidelines that basically say here's a few ways you can do things, interpret them to suit your needs.
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post #189 of 243 (permalink) Old 10-19-14, 04:17 AM
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Its from the short story Rules of Engagement found in the Age of Darkness anthology. Ventanus uses the fledgling codex astartes to great effect against most of the enemies he faces but ultimately could not win and Guilliman claims that his codex was only meant as a guideline.

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post #190 of 243 (permalink) Old 10-19-14, 04:28 PM
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Its from the short story Rules of Engagement found in the Age of Darkness anthology. Ventanus uses the fledgling codex astartes to great effect against most of the enemies he faces but ultimately could not win and Guilliman claims that his codex was only meant as a guideline.
Thanks, I looked everywhere for that Also in hindsight Guilliman should have put that in the forward to ensure it never happened again.

Guess it just goes to show how far the ultramarines fell.
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