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post #11 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-20-14, 06:48 AM
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Speaking of the Necrons, the whole humanizing thing is a disaster in my point of view. I liked it more when they were soulless death machines out to harvest the souls of all sentient life. That was cool and frightening.

Changing them to a bunch of B-villains killing and conquering on their so very human and flawed whims seems so much of a...cop out.

I rather they introduced a new race of technological aristocrats. Or hell, just had the Dark Eldar fill in that niche.
I was devastated as well, but It grew on me. I however absolute hate them being space Tomb Kings.

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post #12 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-20-14, 10:50 AM
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I like the Necron fluff changes. You want your dynasty to be Oldcrons? Easy, they have an unusually high proportion of robit men with the Destroyer Plague. But you want them to be TK in space? Equally easy. Necrons can now have depth and personality if you want, rather than being robot Tyranids.

Personally, it really gets my back up when people complain about Draigo's fluff. I'll admit it's not brilliantly executed, but it's a really cool concept. The whole Mortarion's Heart story? I'd have put money on Draigo winning that if the Codex had simply said 'Draigo charged the Daemon Primarch Mortarion when suddenly the cameraman fell on his ass and nobody knows what happened next'. I won't go into it here, because I went into it there.

I don't think there's that much in the actual 40k fluff that really bothers me - not a fan of how the whole Crimson Path/Great Waaagh! stuff is coming about in the 7th ed books, but only because I can't see a way of it being advanced/solved outside of a disappointing deus ex machina. I mean, I really liked the bit in the Ork book about how Gathrog and Degruk are locked in a huge war that, if one of the Warbosses wins or they team up, could quite possibly defeat the 13th Black Crusade. However, while the event in itself would be great, I'm not sure how it would be dealt with - the nearest I came up with would be that Ghazghkull shows up and does his thing by beating down on Boss Gathrog and Boss Degruk and combines their Waaagh!s, defeats the 13th Black Crusade, but the Orks taking over the containment of said Crusade gives Cadia a much-needed respite period; the Orks get whittled down fighting the Black Legion, leaving the Imperium (and probably Eldar) to come in afterwards and mop up what's left. That falls into the Humanity, Fuck Yeah trope though, and while seeing Ghazghkull fight Abaddon would be crazy-awesome, the aftermath would be quite disappointing (on the other hand, it would diffuse the current 'everything is going to shit and there is no possible way it can ever be fixed' over-grimdarkness of 40k).

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post #13 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-20-14, 12:04 PM
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Personally, it really gets my back up when people complain about Draigo's fluff. I'll admit it's not brilliantly executed, but it's a really cool concept. The whole Mortarion's Heart story? I'd have put money on Draigo winning that if the Codex had simply said 'Draigo charged the Daemon Primarch Mortarion when suddenly the cameraman fell on his ass and nobody knows what happened next'. I won't go into it here, because I went into it there.
Unfortunately this particular piece of fluff is the one thing that not only makes me cringe, but puts me off GKs and Matt Ward. He may not have written it, but he approved it, do he gets the blame. It is the single stupidest piece of fanfic I've ever read. If I read it on a forum I would assume it was written by a 12 year old with a hard on for his new toy soldiers.

On the whole though, having been into 40k since Rogue Trader, I've learned to ride with the retcons, knowing it'll probably all come full circle anyway.
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post #14 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-20-14, 12:31 PM
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1000 men strong: The size of a chapter never bothered me before, but a post on here talked about how another 0 should be added to make it 10,000 marines, and the old legions should have had 800,000+ marines. It made so much sense, and I cringe a little bit every time I hear about only 1000 marines. That's really not a big number at all, and even 10,000 in the grand scheme of things isn't big either.
Absolutely agree. Considering the massive casualties space marines take in every mission in the great crusade (as described in the FW books) and the fact that the legions and equipment was better back then and they were led by the Primarchs I'm astonished that Roboute Guilliman thought that 1000 marines was a suitable size for the future Chapters..

Given the fact that the Chapters are now used as pure assault forces or last ditch defence forces rather than armies, both of these are where you take the majority of casualties and therefore the Chapters would simply die out as you wouldn't be able to replace the losses you'd take quickly enough. All the better (in my opinion) novels describe how many casualties the Chapters take and the Imperial Armour books also show the Chapters taking large casualties (such as in the Badab wars and the siege of Vraks books).

If the Chapters continually take such casualties (and considering I doubt they'd turn their backs on a situation where they were needed) they would be ground down in no time.

If anything needs retconning it's the 1000 limit. I understand the reason for splitting the Legions but by splitting up the Chapters to be so small they're now basically incapable of their primary purpose which is to be the elite forces of the Imperium. All an enemy needs to do is to simply fight a battle of attrition and sooner or later the chapter will need to either retreat or risk being wiped out. Alternatively if they only send 1 or 2 companies to avoid the chapter being wiped out then I'm sorry but enemies can simply overwhelm them.

Enemies such as Necron can outlast the chapters by being tougher and Tyranids can simply send more forces and you get what happen with the Scythes Of the Emperor where their home planet was destroyed. I can't remember the Chapter who were destroyed when a Necron tomb awoke on their homeworld but the result was the same and simply goes to show that the Chapter as a unit simply isn't strong enough to achieve what is needed and that's when it's deployed as a whole. Company sized units are even weaker.

The Damocles Crusade is another example where 2 first founding chapters (Ultramarines and Iron Hands) and the Scythes of the Emperor, supported by Imperial Guard and titans were stopped cold by the Tau when the battle descended into one of attrition. The Ultramarines were led by Marneus Calgar who in the fluff is one of the most brilliant strategists of the age and yet the Imperium still couldn't force a victory. This leads me onto my second thing I hate.

As someone said "A war run by committee is a war already lost" (I'm paraphrasing as I can't find the exact quote but I think it's in Gaunt's Ghosts somewhere). The splitting the Imperial Armed Forces so much it has turned every crusade, every defence into a battle run by committee where the Imperial Commander has to beg and please with the Space Marines and Titans to do what he/she needs them to do.

Putting the Space Marines and Titan Legions outside the overall command structure is just insane. Most of the time the Chapters simply don't bother to co-ordinate their attacks with the allied units and when they do the Imperial Guard commander has no-authority over them and neither does the Space Marine commander over the Imperial Guard forces. The expression "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing". The way I see it, when Space Marines and Imperial Guard fight on the same planet they almost act as 2 completely independent armies who happen to be fighting the same enemy. WTF? The enemies of the Imperium must be laughing. Divide and conquer is an ancient strategy and the Imperium divides itself by choice? No wonder the Imperium is on it's last legs. It's overall military command structure is completely ill designed for what it needs to be.

Only when Space Marines or the Guard fight on their own and therefore there is a unified command structure (such as during the defence of Ultramar against the Tyranids and later Honsou) can a truly effective battle be fought and even then the weakness of the Chapters are cruelly exposed once more. The only crusade I'm uncertain about is Macharius' crusade and whether there were Space Marines with him and how they operated as Macharius' crusade was undeniably effective and I would love to know how and why?

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post #15 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-20-14, 03:55 PM
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The necrons really had an opportunity to highlight their dark tendencies. I would say that is definitely one of the things that bothered me.

Some of the fluff of the Ultramarines series makes me cringe. Pretty garbage if you ask me. Calagar has the physical strength to kill an Avatar and beat the living crude out of Daemon Prince. Those are creatures you aim your strongest weapons on, it begs the question why do you need lascannons when you can drop Calagar into the frey and do that work for everyone. The whole Imperium is wasting their time.
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post #16 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-20-14, 06:18 PM
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Absolutely agree. Considering the massive casualties space marines take in every mission in the great crusade (as described in the FW books) and the fact that the legions and equipment was better back then and they were led by the Primarchs I'm astonished that Roboute Guilliman thought that 1000 marines was a suitable size for the future Chapters..

Given the fact that the Chapters are now used as pure assault forces or last ditch defence forces rather than armies, both of these are where you take the majority of casualties and therefore the Chapters would simply die out as you wouldn't be able to replace the losses you'd take quickly enough. All the better (in my opinion) novels describe how many casualties the Chapters take and the Imperial Armour books also show the Chapters taking large casualties (such as in the Badab wars and the siege of Vraks books).

If the Chapters continually take such casualties (and considering I doubt they'd turn their backs on a situation where they were needed) they would be ground down in no time.

If anything needs retconning it's the 1000 limit. I understand the reason for splitting the Legions but by splitting up the Chapters to be so small they're now basically incapable of their primary purpose which is to be the elite forces of the Imperium. All an enemy needs to do is to simply fight a battle of attrition and sooner or later the chapter will need to either retreat or risk being wiped out. Alternatively if they only send 1 or 2 companies to avoid the chapter being wiped out then I'm sorry but enemies can simply overwhelm them.

Enemies such as Necron can outlast the chapters by being tougher and Tyranids can simply send more forces and you get what happen with the Scythes Of the Emperor where their home planet was destroyed. I can't remember the Chapter who were destroyed when a Necron tomb awoke on their homeworld but the result was the same and simply goes to show that the Chapter as a unit simply isn't strong enough to achieve what is needed and that's when it's deployed as a whole. Company sized units are even weaker.

The Damocles Crusade is another example where 2 first founding chapters (Ultramarines and Iron Hands) and the Scythes of the Emperor, supported by Imperial Guard and titans were stopped cold by the Tau when the battle descended into one of attrition. The Ultramarines were led by Marneus Calgar who in the fluff is one of the most brilliant strategists of the age and yet the Imperium still couldn't force a victory. This leads me onto my second thing I hate.

As someone said "A war run by committee is a war already lost" (I'm paraphrasing as I can't find the exact quote but I think it's in Gaunt's Ghosts somewhere). The splitting the Imperial Armed Forces so much it has turned every crusade, every defence into a battle run by committee where the Imperial Commander has to beg and please with the Space Marines and Titans to do what he/she needs them to do.

Putting the Space Marines and Titan Legions outside the overall command structure is just insane. Most of the time the Chapters simply don't bother to co-ordinate their attacks with the allied units and when they do the Imperial Guard commander has no-authority over them and neither does the Space Marine commander over the Imperial Guard forces. The expression "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing". The way I see it, when Space Marines and Imperial Guard fight on the same planet they almost act as 2 completely independent armies who happen to be fighting the same enemy. WTF? The enemies of the Imperium must be laughing. Divide and conquer is an ancient strategy and the Imperium divides itself by choice? No wonder the Imperium is on it's last legs. It's overall military command structure is completely ill designed for what it needs to be.

Only when Space Marines or the Guard fight on their own and therefore there is a unified command structure (such as during the defence of Ultramar against the Tyranids and later Honsou) can a truly effective battle be fought and even then the weakness of the Chapters are cruelly exposed once more. The only crusade I'm uncertain about is Macharius' crusade and whether there were Space Marines with him and how they operated as Macharius' crusade was undeniably effective and I would love to know how and why?

I would like to point out the efficiency of the defence of New Rynn's City during Waaagh Snagrod. The Crimson Fist deploys a SM with all the Planetary Guard regiment to keep moral high. And I know that planetary guards are quite different from imperial Guard but a way to show how a few marines can boost the more numerous Guard.

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post #17 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-20-14, 06:31 PM
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Only when Space Marines or the Guard fight on their own and therefore there is a unified command structure (such as during the defence of Ultramar against the Tyranids and later Honsou) can a truly effective battle be fought and even then the weakness of the Chapters are cruelly exposed once more.
The only thing I will say to your complaint is that Guilliman and the rest of the Imperium feared a second civil war to such an extent that they are willing to accept all those shortcomings and restrictions you listed.

The Imperium is willing to sacrifice those worlds and Chapters to defeat because of how grave a danger a Space Marine led civil war could be.
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post #18 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-20-14, 06:59 PM
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I would like to point out the efficiency of the defence of New Rynn's City during Waaagh Snagrod. The Crimson Fist deploys a SM with all the Planetary Guard regiment to keep moral high. And I know that planetary guards are quite different from imperial Guard but a way to show how a few marines can boost the more numerous Guard.
Fair point although the fact that the Planetary Guard in question will be used to co-operating with and putting themselves under the command of the Space Marines, something otherwise forbidden (I think) since the Horus Heresy.

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The only thing I will say to your complaint is that Guilliman and the rest of the Imperium feared a second civil war to such an extent that they are willing to accept all those shortcomings and restrictions you listed.

The Imperium is willing to sacrifice those worlds and Chapters to defeat because of how grave a danger a Space Marine led civil war could be.
Yeah I know and it's sad that the Space Marines quote is "They Shall Know No Fear". I think it's a massive irony that the same Primarch which came up with the "Know No Fear" quote, came up with the strategy post Heresy which shows the Imperium is pretty much afraid of everything, including itself.

Maybe a more accurate quote for the Space Marines should be "We're Afraid of All The Other Space Marines/Imperial Guard/Titan Legions/Anybody else turning traitor and afraid of anyone having an original thought when it comes to the Codex Astartes and basically we can't do the job we were created for since we're now crippled in our ability to wage war due to our fear."

Probably not as catchy though.

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post #19 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-21-14, 12:12 AM
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The necrons really had an opportunity to highlight their dark tendencies. I would say that is definitely one of the things that bothered me.

Some of the fluff of the Ultramarines series makes me cringe. Pretty garbage if you ask me. Calagar has the physical strength to kill an Avatar and beat the living crude out of Daemon Prince. Those are creatures you aim your strongest weapons on, it begs the question why do you need lascannons when you can drop Calagar into the frey and do that work for everyone. The whole Imperium is wasting their time.
You could just assume that everything written about the space marines in the codex is imperial propaganda. Same with the necrons, it's an imperial book written based on scraps of information they gleaned from their encounters with the crons.
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post #20 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-21-14, 12:45 AM
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Those are creatures you aim your strongest weapons on, it begs the question why do you need lascannons when you can drop Calagar into the frey and do that work for everyone. The whole Imperium is wasting their time.
Alas, the number of Calagars in the Imperium is sorely outstripped by its demand. Hence why almost everyone has to deal with the greatly inferior las cannon ;D.
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