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post #41 of 50 (permalink) Old 09-03-14, 09:45 PM
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The problem with Heresy not being warseer or dakka, or whatever other warhammer you put on, is that despite majority being decent people who like to actually swear without being banned, you get some cunts who don't fit in at warseer for the same reason they don't fit in here.

They're idiots. You see two specimens in this thread.
Haha, I was banned on Warseer (probably had something to do with me telling off their admin for encouraging trolling). Aside from its hobby area, that place is such a shithole. Though Dakka is pretty close in its "General" and "Background" communities, again because there are moderators who encourage trolling by protecting bad behavior.

That said, 40K isn't going anywhere. Like I've posited before, the 13th Black Crusade campaign being shitcanned probably has as much to do with the product direction as anything else. If anyone actually thought the setting was going to radically alter either way was fooling themselves. I don't think anyone on the team thought it would be possible to game the system like the Chaos players did, so they probably expected it to end up fairly even.

But was GW going to allow Cadia to be conquered (thus having to rebrand all of their Cadian IGuard figures)? Heh. Was Chaos going to break out and conquer Terra? Please. They'd have just lost somewhere else down the line and we'd have gotten a "Cadian Crusade" campaign instead, and everything would have reset to zero.

Because that's the sustaining truth of 40K, across pretty much the 21ish years of "modern 40K" (starting with the fluff consolidation in 2nd Edition). No change.

And that's because 40K isn't really a story. Sure, stories happen in 40K. But 40K is a setting for you to play with expensive plastic toy soldiers, and that setting's overarching narrative is there for the players to create their own stories alongside that shared narrative space.

There's not reason to push the story forward. Sure, some players want to know "what happens next", but for every person clamoring for what's next, there are probably ten who are just happy to continue playing with their toy soldiers in the status quo. After all, there are 10,000 years worth of history to explore in 40K.

Besides. What would actually happen in 000.M42? Nothing. It's not suddenly going to change because the calendar rolls over 1 place.

Fantasy can talk about "The End of Times" all it wants. But no times are actually going to end.

If Marneus Calgar is supposed to be "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible, but the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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post #42 of 50 (permalink) Old 09-03-14, 10:26 PM
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Then there's also the fact that no matter what fantasy is never going to be on the same scale as 40K It's a single planet meaning that there's always going to be a limit as to what forces can be brought to bear. Meaning that a small group is always going to be able to affect the outcome.
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post #43 of 50 (permalink) Old 09-03-14, 10:27 PM
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Then there's also the fact that no matter what fantasy is never going to be on the same scale as 40K It's a single planet meaning that there's always going to be a limit as to what forces can be brought to bear. Meaning that a small group is always going to be able to affect the outcome.
I had never considered this. That is a awesome point, well made.

Cookie to you good sir.
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post #44 of 50 (permalink) Old 09-03-14, 10:48 PM
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Define small. Despite you talking of galactic scale warfare, it's little more than still boiling down to one conflict in a particular location. That city can be Middenheim, or it can be the Gates of Terra.

Gorthor the beastlord killed "millions" (although that maybe hyperbole, authors perspective as if they were the beastlord bigging things up, or the author being a complete twat, all of which are possible). There is 15,000 years of history and conflict to back up on, with endless daemons whenever the writers wish thanks to two polar gates and the great Magical storms which whip across the world.

The "scale" is no different other than numbers on a map. The number of villages, border fortresses, towns, dwarf holds, elven colonies, temple cities, etc which have been destroyed in published literature probably outnumbers the 40K novels number of destroyed planets or cities, and they serve the exact same purpose. Those "millions" which were killed were still the same drop in the ocean as the half dozen villagers who were killed in the nameless village at the start of "Archaon; Everchosen".

The only time you actually get a scale of how bad things have gone is in the 30K novels - and that is not down to the nature of how some backwater shithole like Pythos was taken by Chaos, but by the events happening where entire legions are being split in two. The first two novels which saw the traitor legions decimate (and that word has lost its meaning through over use - but I literally mean, decimate - as in, kill 1 in every 10) their own ranks to kill the "loyalists", where forces which not only outnumber our own military, but are ultrahumans, let alone superhumans are fighting amongst themselves having conquered the stars. In 40K, I'm sorry to say that feeling is lost as it's "just another world", similar to how it's "just another town" and that the meaningful locations to the players can't be touched.

How would you like it as a Space Wolf player to be told that your entire chapter was wiped out during the defence of the Cadian Gate? Or that the Ulthwe Craftworld had been destroyed, and all were lost? It's the same thing with saying that Middenheim was destroyed by Archaon, so now you may no longer field Knights of the White Wolf, etc.

There is no difference between the scales other than imaginary zeroes.



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post #45 of 50 (permalink) Old 09-04-14, 10:47 PM
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See, to be a successful troll, you actually have to throw in some meaningful comments before going back to full troll mode. if you're always trolling, you're never trolling, if you know what I mean?

OT: I don't know if it's more "realistic". Rather than realistic, I supposed more...filled out(?) would be a better term.

We're getting more information on what all the factions want and how they're trying to get it. How it pans out...we'll have to wait and see.
I'm sorry, but I have a personal low opinion of CotE. And I'm accused of trolling just for making it public. I'm sorry but I tend to have a very low opinion about people I disagree with, and when he cracks a joke at my expense I elect to take exception and hit back. It's the common law about mirroring, you reap what you sow. And trust me, I'm all into mirroring.

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post #46 of 50 (permalink) Old 09-04-14, 10:48 PM
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How about instead you stick him on ignore.

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post #47 of 50 (permalink) Old 09-04-14, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Beaviz81 View Post
I'm sorry, but I have a personal low opinion of CotE. And I'm accused of trolling just for making it public. I'm sorry but I tend to have a very low opinion about people I disagree with, and when he cracks a joke at my expense I elect to take exception and hit back. It's the common law about mirroring, you reap what you sow. And trust me, I'm all into mirroring.
LOL, works every time

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One of the reasons I post on this forum, is due to its lack of trolling. Unlike most other forums...this one is relatively free of trolling.
I agree, it is...relatively...troll free. However heated debates still rage in the dark corners of Jezlad's creation. I'd almost say......

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Did you put your penis through the doughtnut hole emperorshand89? Then get your nurse to eat it off without licking her lips?
Oh my Goodness; TROLL ALERT! TROLL ALERT!!

On a side note they were delicious, right from Honey Dew Donuts shop on Temple Street. Good stuff.

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Agreed and you know what every utopia needs.... a self appointed almighty rule.......
Like this guy. Seriously he started his own Country within the U.S (Nevada) call the Republic of Molossia. Read it, it's either the crazy work of a man with too much time on his hands, or a citizens who actually got away with breaking the law (I think).

http://www.molossia.org/

BTW +1 Rep for you Mr. Veteran Sergeant, my hats off to you sir. Couldn't have said it better myself. I would only disagree on the point of reseting to Zero without a new playing field but in general you made the point.



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post #48 of 50 (permalink) Old 09-05-14, 12:40 AM
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Define small. Despite you talking of galactic scale warfare, it's little more than still boiling down to one conflict in a particular location. That city can be Middenheim, or it can be the Gates of Terra.

Gorthor the beastlord killed "millions" (although that maybe hyperbole, authors perspective as if they were the beastlord bigging things up, or the author being a complete twat, all of which are possible). There is 15,000 years of history and conflict to back up on, with endless daemons whenever the writers wish thanks to two polar gates and the great Magical storms which whip across the world.

The "scale" is no different other than numbers on a map. The number of villages, border fortresses, towns, dwarf holds, elven colonies, temple cities, etc which have been destroyed in published literature probably outnumbers the 40K novels number of destroyed planets or cities, and they serve the exact same purpose. Those "millions" which were killed were still the same drop in the ocean as the half dozen villagers who were killed in the nameless village at the start of "Archaon; Everchosen".

The only time you actually get a scale of how bad things have gone is in the 30K novels - and that is not down to the nature of how some backwater shithole like Pythos was taken by Chaos, but by the events happening where entire legions are being split in two. The first two novels which saw the traitor legions decimate (and that word has lost its meaning through over use - but I literally mean, decimate - as in, kill 1 in every 10) their own ranks to kill the "loyalists", where forces which not only outnumber our own military, but are ultrahumans, let alone superhumans are fighting amongst themselves having conquered the stars. In 40K, I'm sorry to say that feeling is lost as it's "just another world", similar to how it's "just another town" and that the meaningful locations to the players can't be touched.

How would you like it as a Space Wolf player to be told that your entire chapter was wiped out during the defence of the Cadian Gate? Or that the Ulthwe Craftworld had been destroyed, and all were lost? It's the same thing with saying that Middenheim was destroyed by Archaon, so now you may no longer field Knights of the White Wolf, etc.

There is no difference between the scales other than imaginary zeroes.
Honestly I'm not going to argue with this, both systems tend to ignore logic in place of rule of cool.
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post #49 of 50 (permalink) Old 09-05-14, 01:07 AM
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It's the common law about mirroring, you reap what you sow. And trust me, I'm all into mirroring.
Still waiting for the part where you bring up valid in universe sources combined with insightful (or at least logical) rhetoric.

But, hey, copy the part where he mocks you for talking out of your butt. We can't all be perfect.

The latest example of this happening is, to my memory, in the "Ultramarine Casualties at Calth" where you try to convience everyone (and failing) that the Ultramarines only lost 10-20% of their men at Calth despite CotE (and others, myself included) citing directly from Know no Fear that the Ultramarines almost certainty lost considerably more than that.

I did notice that when CotE gave some pretty explicit and detailed citations you mysteriously disappeared.

Last edited by hailene; 09-05-14 at 01:13 AM.
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post #50 of 50 (permalink) Old 09-08-14, 09:23 AM
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Sources, I would be very interested to see who you know. Sandy Mitchell by any chance?
Well okay wrong use of plural, but ADB has made quite a few comments about it and even a very detailed post on his blog as his novel Cadian Blood will be having problems for canon and Rob Saunders also confirmed in a interview that it might difficult to continue the storyline from Atlas Infernal.

Last edited by forkmaster; 09-08-14 at 09:27 AM.
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