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post #21 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-15-14, 07:40 PM
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VAZ, I mostly agree with you. The bolter is a point weapon. The Heavy Bolter may not be, but the individual SM weapon is. The armour piercing explosive bolts don't have that much of an area effect as a liquidizing effect when they explode inside a target. That's the idea behind the Marines, they go kill things that don't die easily. If it was easy to kill they'd send in the IG.

However I disagree with the XM-25 comparison, I'd say more the South African PAW-20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofYkJpxRX2c http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopup_PAW-20

I agree that with a sniper round there isn't much need for an explosive payload against humans, however there are explosive rifles around and being used for long range kills. An explosive payload will hit just as hard at 2000m as it does at 200m. Of the 14 listed longest sniper kills on Wiki, 3 of them use .50cal Raufoss rounds which are explosive and one used a 14.5x114mm wich can fire explosive rounds as well.

The bolt is vastly over kill to kill a human, it is designed to kill without any chance of survival. Instead of punching a small permanent wound channel with a slightly larger stretch channel it is designed to explode inside a target and lacerate the vital organs, even if they have not been hit directly by the bullet. Think Traitor Marines with their redundant organs, think Ork with their extreme resistance to injury and think Tyrranid with whatever hellspawn internals they have.

It may not be a long ranged precision weapon like an M24, but it is as much of a point weapon as an M14 is. You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.
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post #22 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-16-14, 02:34 AM
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Tgere are no explosive sniper rifles being used for long range kills. Authorisation under I believe it's the geneva convention is kinda limited to encouraging the use of explosive ammunition against those targets.

The XM25 and Neopup are, according to the wiki page you linked, in direct competition with each other. The slight differences according to that page are minor points outside of the ideal of that bolter, and theoretical design.

The Raufoss is a .50cal sniper round. The .50 Cal is an anti materiel weapon. A Sniper starting his day job doesn't get equipped with a Barrett, he gets equipped with a 7.62 or slightly larger variant, not a weapon designed to take on light vehicles or helicopters. Taking advantage of a target in the open is the snipers game - as I've yet to meet a serious military marksman in 8 years of service who thought that he'd be able to do his job better the further away he was. If you're referring to Sgt. Kremer's shot, he was hunting Fedayeen and militia upgunned pick ups, as that was his task. He gave a talk when I spent 7 months with the USMC during Anglo-US joint training operations at Gila Bend with our Apache's. We learned from him about spotting targets - the main thing he was employed as, rather than as a killer - the apache with its 2 million payload was the true killer instead - it was utter chance he was in a position to take the shot - and he even said he 'missed' - the shot taking him in the stomach rather than the chest.



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post #23 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-16-14, 09:43 AM
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Bolter's are fictional weapon's in a fictional universe. Hence, they fire as fast or as slow as the author wants. All we can do as fans if make vague comparisons to modern weapons to get a standardized and mechanically feasible rate of fire. However, even in today's fire arm's most weapons firing rates are completely determined by the firing mechanisms design, so bolter's firing rates could vary drastically simply based on what pattern of bolter it is.

I will say this though, fully automatic bolters would be idiotic for a specialist force like the SM who rarly operate within reach of ammunition resupplies. Not to mention they are supposed to have target assists built into their armor, and religious amounts of fire arms training. So realistically I doubt they would ever resort to fully auto fire in the first place.


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post #24 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-16-14, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by LukeValantine View Post
So realistically I doubt they would ever resort to fully auto fire in the first place.
Depends on what they're shooting at. A terminator would be a target worthy of full-auto (which a squad of Marines Errant manage kill a terminator in Blood Reaver). Or a Squiggoth or some large tyranid creature.

Firing at extremely fast moving targets (like the Void Stalker in, er, Void Stalker).

Would a Space Marine be typically firing on full-auto? Very unlikely. But remember Space Marines, like their war gear, were designed to take on anything the galaxy could spit at it. They were also designed for massed warfare--as we see in the pacification of Terra, the Sol system, and ultimately the Great Crusade.
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post #25 of 25 (permalink) Old 11-16-14, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
Tgere are no explosive sniper rifles being used for long range kills. Authorisation under I believe it's the geneva convention is kinda limited to encouraging the use of explosive ammunition against those targets.
Huh? You say they aren't being used then say they are being encouraged. I don't understand.


Quote:
The Raufoss is a .50cal sniper round. The .50 Cal is an anti materiel weapon. A Sniper starting his day job doesn't get equipped with a Barrett, he gets equipped with a 7.62 or slightly larger variant, not a weapon designed to take on light vehicles or helicopters. Taking advantage of a target in the open is the snipers game - as I've yet to meet a serious military marksman in 8 years of service who thought that he'd be able to do his job better the further away he was. If you're referring to Sgt. Kremer's shot, he was hunting Fedayeen and militia upgunned pick ups, as that was his task. He gave a talk when I spent 7 months with the USMC during Anglo-US joint training operations at Gila Bend with our Apache's. We learned from him about spotting targets - the main thing he was employed as, rather than as a killer - the apache with its 2 million payload was the true killer instead - it was utter chance he was in a position to take the shot - and he even said he 'missed' - the shot taking him in the stomach rather than the chest.
I don't understand this point. I never said it makes the job easier being further away, I said it can carry the energy better. The explosive payload will "hit" just as hard no matter the range. Yeah being closer is better, there are fewer variables you need to consider, but being further away generally means the enemy thinks you are out of range and takes fewer precautions or doesn't even know you are there. The 14.5x114mm that was used recently to kill an M23 leader was a long range kill on a target of opportunity, yes. Besides the US's .50's there are a couple of 20mm rifles being developed and deployed by other countries.

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The XM25 and Neopup are, according to the wiki page you linked, in direct competition with each other. The slight differences according to that page are minor points outside of the ideal of that bolter, and theoretical design.
Maybe, but the design motivation behind the XM-25 was air burst grenades to hit enemies in cover. The Neopup is a direct hit weapon, probably with a smaller frag area than the XM-25's ammo. The Bolter is a direct hit weapon as well. It is not a grenade launcher
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