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post #1 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-28-14, 08:14 PM Thread Starter
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Default The Imperium needs more marines!?

Dear Hetetics, I do not know if this has been covered before (probably) but I was thinking about spacemarine numbers, not chapter size but throughout the Imperium. There are approx 1000 chapters each with 1000 marines in the vast majority of them so that gives us 1000000 marines. Ok so we have established Oldman can do basic math, but during the Great Crusade we had 18 Legions generally with 100k astartes give or take with the exception of the Word Bearers and the Ultramarines whom were quite large, so in general terms at peak strenght the Imperium had just over 2000000 astartes.

So post Heresy the present Imperium has 50% less marines that it should, do you think this is an oversight on the fluff writters or the ingrained fear of the Imperium that a huge amount of may revolt again, and thus keeping marine numbers down empowers the Lords of Terra even at the detriment of humanity, with the Imperium beset on all sides surely an extra million marines would be handy!

Your thoughts please, Oldman xoxox


Last edited by Old Man78; 04-28-14 at 09:54 PM.
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post #2 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-28-14, 09:48 PM
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War, attrition, resources, enemy plotting and lost technology prevents the Imperium from doing so. They are just able to barely keep the status quo.
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post #3 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-28-14, 10:28 PM
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As seen in Deliverance Lost, it is quite difficult to mass produce marines. Then as seen in Battle of the Fang, any plan to mass produce marines, ends in chaos intervention. There have been attempts to make more marines, they just have not worked out. The number of marines pre-heresy was so high only because the Emperor was there to create them.
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post #4 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-28-14, 10:33 PM
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the chapters where reformed from legions due to fear of further revolts. Also, as malus pointed out tech loss and pure attrition could be a decisive factor. This said, the 1000k numeber is plausible "number wise" but fluff wise is just too small. I'd say that a reasonable number to justify any canon space marine involvemnt (not to mention the casualty rate) should be around the 5 millions, imo. The galaxy is damn large, you know...

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post #5 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-28-14, 10:54 PM
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I think the number of marines has always seemed small. The tech loss may or may not make sense. I recall there was mention somewhere that the marines mass produced for the great crusade may not have been as high quality add they should have. Some suspicion therefore falls on how that allows chaos to influence them, or not. And of course this was during the emperor's reign.

Also if my recollection is correct, the imperial guard didn't exist in the same way. The entire structure of the legions was very different, the legions also included the navy and maybe the human warriors.

The infrastructure wasn't there for the same military machine. The forge worlds didn't all exist. The interstellar recruiting structures weren't so developed.

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post #6 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-28-14, 10:59 PM
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I think the numbers are kept deliberately low for fear of them turning against the Imperium.

Look at the Astral Claws. They held back their geneseed tithes for, what, 150? 160 years? They blossom into a mini-legion of 4000+ marines. All the while doing their duty to protect the Imperium from the Maelstrom. Not only did he defend his fiefdom, but he also engaged in campaigns against nearby Xenos empires (which I can only assume would involve Astartes losses).

There's only a million Space Marines because the High Lords only want a million Space Marines.
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post #7 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-28-14, 11:27 PM
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I think the numbers are kept deliberately low for fear of them turning against the Imperium.
I doubt it. The pro's of having more Astartes outweighs the potential of them turning traitor by a billion to one.
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post #8 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-29-14, 12:02 AM
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Outside of the ability to biologically produce more Space Marines, I'd question the Imperiums economic ability to support a doubling of the Astartes chapters. Every Chapter of a thousand marines has, relatively, their own fleet of ships, their own manufactorum production for weapons/vehicles/servitors/ammo/etc. Then you run into the retainers and servitors adn all the materials they require to field the Chapter and it just balloons.

I get the Imperium is a big place with a lot of resources, but I think it would take a thousand years or more for the current Imperium to change their macro-production to double the number of Astartes chapters and all that implies.

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post #9 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-29-14, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
I doubt it. The pro's of having more Astartes outweighs the potential of them turning traitor by a billion to one.
Imperium gets along, mostly, with the the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard. The Space Marines are there only as a last resort when all else fails.

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As another piece of evidence suggesting the Imperium could field more marines...

As a direct response to Hive Leviathan (which only really appeared at the END of 997.M41, so just barely a couple years beyond the "current" time), "dozens" of Space Marine Chapters have been founded.

That's an impressive amount! In just a couple years, they increased the number of Chapters 2.5-9%. That's nothing to scoff at.
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post #10 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-29-14, 02:49 AM
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During the Heresy there was no way 100,000 Astartes per legion at all.

Thousand Sons had maybe 1,500 at most.

Emperors Children had roughly 5,000.

All the other Legions had around 25,000-80,000 Marines IIRC.

Word Bearers had 150,000.

Ultramarines had 200,000, but it is rumored they are that large due to the other two Legions with missing Primarchs absorbing into the ultras.

By my math....

1,636,500 SMs max during the Heresy.

This is not using lower numbers of 20,000 for some legions, just the higher 80,000.

Not that big of a jump for Loyalist Marines alone in 40K.
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