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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-29-14, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by hailene View Post
Sometimes throwing a 100 marines at a problem works out better than using 100 million guardsmen. You know, when precision is required over brute force.

Different tools for different jobs. You wouldn't waste 10,000 marines on a static 500 year war like Krieg's civil war.
Yeah, they're great troops and perfect if you have a specific target that you really need to fuck up, but when you've got an entire galaxy that's basically a giant shit storm you need bodies. Lots and lots of bodies.
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Originally Posted by LordOftheNight View Post
Not really. Astartes are recruited from best warriors on their world. Such individuals would be obviously very rare, as only a handful of them manages to survive the brutal training regime and requirements every chapter upholds.

Add the implants failure and more, some can't become Astartes simply because their body won't accept the implants. That's more wasted bodies.

I imagine finding more STC would help greatly, as such technological constructs would be beneficial to all aspects of imperium. Albeit I assume they would destroy any High AI machines, since it's a tech-heresy now.

I'd start by expanding border a little more to claim more resources and start outfiting guards with better equipment
Wat?

The Website kept telling me that my profile was only 80% complete without creating a signature. Ain't no website going to tell me I was a lazy shit, no sir.
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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-29-14, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
I think the OP was referring to new gene seed made entirely rather than dragged up from vaults deep within Terra for the purpose of forming new chapters.
I've lost where your postings is going. That doesn't seem to relate to the back and forth conversation we've had so far (not that I can decipher, anyway). Could you restate what point you're trying to make, please?
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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-29-14, 10:07 PM
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Yeah, they're great troops and perfect if you have a specific target that you really need to fuck up, but when you've got an entire galaxy that's basically a giant shit storm you need bodies. Lots and lots of bodies.


Wat?
Where seems to be the problem?
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-29-14, 10:57 PM
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The 'Actually, no' bit. I'm confused as to how what you said disagreed with what I said.

The Website kept telling me that my profile was only 80% complete without creating a signature. Ain't no website going to tell me I was a lazy shit, no sir.
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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-30-14, 06:10 AM
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Call it an oversight, or call it a deliberate thematic choice.

At one point, the Legions were supposed to be 10,000-strong. The nine loyal Legions somehow amounted to a thousand Chapters with a manpower of 1,000,000 Space Marines by M41.

The fluff evolved, and the Legions became much larger. The average Legion numbered between 100,000-120,000 Space Marines. Despite this increase, the manpower of the Adeptus Astartes in M41 did not change.

This was not simply because the Imperium incorrectly thought the Legions numbered 10,000 Space Marines during the Great Crusade when in fact they numbered 100,000-120,000. The writing team themselves believed this, until it was decided the Legions would be larger.

Who knows why there are only 1,000,000 Space Marines. I don't buy the idea that this is because the process of making one HAS to be so incredibly difficult. The Ultramarines have been proving for ten millennia now that you don't need a murderous environment to get high-quality recruits. At the opposite side of the spectrum, several largely undeveloped/technologically backward Legion home worlds proved during the course of the Great Crusade that they could maintain the manpower of a Legion that - depending on the timeline of the hobby - was 10-120 times bigger than a normal Chapter.

Bottom line, I'm willing to accept that the Chapters make the process difficult on themselves because (A) it makes them feel elite and (B) the Imperium's cap on their manpower means they can afford to be much more selective. I don't buy the notion that they HAVE to find that "one in a million" twelve year-old that can successfully hunt dinosaurs, though.

Where genetic compatibility is concerned, I honestly think that's blown out of proportion to a degree. Caliban was able to crank out about four thousand Space Marines every two years - albeit under optimized circumstances. You have to remember, though, that Caliban sported a feudal society in a Death World environment. If genetic compatibility requirements were such that only a minority of even un-mutated humans could meet them, there's no way a planet with such a small population could maintain recruitment needs. More likely, genetic compatibility came down to prospective candidates simply not suffering from mutation.

That correlates with what we see in "Angels of Darkness": Boreas' recruiting trip consists of visiting a tribe - of no size worth mentioning - that trots out twenty teenagers. Boreas picks the top three of the crop and checks to make sure that they're compatible. Surprise-surprise, two out of three are. That third one? We don't even know that he wasn't compatible. He just happened to have second thoughts about joining after seeing Brother Nestor dig through the first candidate's intestines as part of the "examination process."

Last edited by Phoebus; 04-30-14 at 03:51 PM.
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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 04-30-14, 01:21 PM
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Agreed.

The recruitment base is not the limiter on chapter size. Look at Baal. Scrawny techno-barbarians suffering from radiation poisoning can become Space Marines. the recruits are described as sallow, stunted, wretched things. The implantation process then turns them into Space Marines.

Hell lets say only 1% of men can become Space Marines. Even if you have a recruitment base of 1 million on your harshest death world, an incredibly small number, that's still 10,000 aspirants. Even if its 0.1% that's 1,000. Population is not the issue.

It's a self imposed limitation from Imperial Law. the Codex decrees a chapter is 1000 battle brothers, the Imperial authorities want it that way. Law combined with ritual. the Chapters have now been recruiting in their current manner for 10,000 years. That's 10,000 years of ritual, custom, dogma and inertia. That's a time period longer than current human recorded history.

As hailene pointed out look how fast the Astral Claws grew once they decided to.

As an aside it is a thematic choice.

One Million Space Marines; 1 Space Marine for every world in the Imperium, yet enough for the task at hand. It's the few stalwart defenders of humanity, the long regression of man and the desperate defence of the empire. 3 million or whatever doesn't have quite the same ring to it.


Last edited by Rems; 04-30-14 at 01:24 PM.
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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-01-14, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by LordOftheNight View Post
As two metres tall said, more astartes would mean higher production requirements as forgeworlds would struggle to uphold the necessary quota for every individual chapter.
Bullshit, just make more. The Imperium with all it's resources could easily create more Forge Worlds, and colonize further planets near the Rims. Additionally turn some of those backwater planets into the full-on production cetners they could be. Really it would not be that hard to ramp up production to keep the quota.

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Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
Bottom line, I'm willing to accept that the Chapters make the process difficult on themselves because (A) it makes them feel elite and (B) the Imperium's cap on their manpower means they can afford to be much more selective. I don't buy the notion that they HAVE to find that "one in a million" twelve year-old that can successfully hunt dinosaurs, though.
I quite agree. Seems like a more practical approach.



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Last edited by emporershand89; 05-01-14 at 10:44 PM.
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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-05-14, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Warlock in Training View Post
Wait what!? I remember in the novel it stated around 1500 and then less than 1000 by the end.

Emperors Children were 10,000 at most in Fulgrim Novel, and thats why they seek perfection due to small numbers.

I will go through my novels again, but pretty sure many novels contradict what your putting out in numbers.


Edit. I see my mistake, I am looking at numbers of different time events. Example, Raven Gaurd had 80,000 but was down to 4,000-6,000 during the Heresy. Same for Thousand Sons that seemed to been 10,000 strong. Fulgrim Legion was very small initially as well, but during the Great Crusade it was bolstered alot before the Heresy. I was 50,000 off for WBs and Ultras as WBs had a smaller Legion Size before the Heresy.

My mistake. But the fact remains, depending on the time line, a Legion can be anywhere from 10,000 to 150,000 in size lol.
The Forge World book Extermination states that at the time of the Dropsite Massacre the Raven Guard were the smallest Legion, with 80.000 marines. The early Horus Heresy novels give much smaller legion numbers because they were written before the writers decided to boost the legions in average size from 10.000 to 100.000.

The Forge World books about the Heresy (Betrayal, Massacre and Extermination give the following numbers for 12 of the Legions just prior to the Heresy:

Sons of Horus: 130.000-170.000
World Eaters: 150.000
Emperor's Children: 110.000
Death Guard: 95.000
Iron Hands: 113.000
Raven Guard: 80.000
Salamanders: 89.000
Word Bearers: 140.000 at minimum
Night Lords: 90.000-120.000
Alpha Legion: 120.000-130.000
Iron Warriors: 150.000-180.000
Imperial Fists: 99.000
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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-05-14, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Karthak View Post
The Forge World book Extermination states that at the time of the Dropsite Massacre the Raven Guard were the smallest Legion, with 80.000 marines. The early Horus Heresy novels give much smaller legion numbers because they were written before the writers decided to boost the legions in average size from 10.000 to 100.000.

The Forge World books about the Heresy (Betrayal, Massacre and Extermination give the following numbers for 12 of the Legions just prior to the Heresy:

Sons of Horus: 130.000-170.000
World Eaters: 150.000
Emperor's Children: 110.000
Death Guard: 95.000
Iron Hands: 113.000
Raven Guard: 80.000
Salamanders: 89.000
Word Bearers: 140.000 at minimum
Night Lords: 90.000-120.000
Alpha Legion: 120.000-130.000
Iron Warriors: 150.000-180.000
Imperial Fists: 99.000
Interesting idea, sounds most likely.

One thing I noticed though, all the Loyalist legions were outnumbered by the Traitors lol.
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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 05-05-14, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Warlock in Training View Post
One thing I noticed though, all the Loyalist legions were outnumbered by the Traitors lol.
Makes sense since they had time to prepare for the Heresy. Time to bolster their Legions while reducing causalities (which in turn increases their strengths).

Horus probably sent the Loyalist Legions into the most brutal of warzones, too, to reduce their strengths.
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