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post #31 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-16-14, 03:30 AM
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I would still not want a weapon that failed once in a while and you are deflating the numbers locustgate.
Then use a sword, every projectile weapon misfires.

EDIT: Hell even swords can 'misfire', break/dull. Maybe but not by that not much.

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post #32 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-16-14, 03:33 AM
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If half of the things I created turned against me and there are bound to be leaks to the x-rays (and you said yourself they are only human down below). Trust me a guy that want to screw the IOM over would most certainly tell and I haven't noted thing go catastrophically wrong for neither the Eldar nor the Tau since the IOM came along. Of course the Eldar is a dying race just like the Tau are merely fledging and neither likely likes nor needs the unstable humans to prosper.

My story about the commissars Zachary Carrus and Michelle Ionza and their life and crimes https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=123690
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post #33 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-16-14, 05:14 AM
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For example tau have battle suits but why not try make something as powerful and tough armor and give them standardised better fire warrior armour.
It is more than the armor that protects him that keeps an Astarte alive. it is his physical and psychological conditioning, his training, the weapon he uses, and the resources at his disposal that all come together to create one of the most effective killingmmachine the 40k galaxy has ever known. The Tau cannot simply recreate that, and unfortuantly the Earth caste has not changed their way of "armoring" their units for quite some time.

As for other races they have all created their own verzion of "Ultimate Soldier" breeds.

The Orks naturally develop Nobz, Mega Nobz, Bionik Warrioz, and Warbosses which turn into the Astart equivilant based on just sheer muscle mass and brutality. Unfortuantly they do not reproduce often so they poose little threat.

Nids have Tyrant Guards, and Warriors which breed like crazy and have the strength of 2 Astartes in one. It remains to be deteremined if they pose a threat to Astartes, but it has been well documented they are a challenged to kill.

Guard keeps their assasins and Ogryns in their back pockets while various type of Skitarii and Elites prowle the Inquisitorial ranks. Few of these can even compare to an Astarte, yet their arsenal is certainly none to gawk at.

Chaos....well their alreayd Astarte :p the Daemonics dont' really need to contend, they can just think up their new superhumans; it's the reason the Astarte exiast quite honestly.

Necrons have the Lych Gaurds and Traich Preatorians. Especially with the Lych Guard their CQC abilities are second to none. I would love to see a 10 vs 10 with Astartes and these bad boys just to see whow ould win out.

Eldar don't really have any heavy hitters like Astarte but often employee Autarchs and Warlocks to combat these Troop choices. Warlocks especially have good CQC abiltiies though I'm unsure, both in TT and Lore, if they have the psychical ability and armor to hang in their with Astarte.

Grotesques are the only real unit with enough firepower and armor to go toe-to-toe with Astarte. The style of warfare favored by the Dark Eldar do not allow for heavy units in thick power armor.

In conclusion each race has it's own version of heavy troops, but only Humanity can lay claim to Legions of "Super Soldiers," in terms of size. Sadly though as GW evolves the game Astartes are becoming more basic line troops, and power armor is sadly finding it's weakness as new strategies and weapons become avalaiable.



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post #34 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-16-14, 01:23 PM
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There is a severe difference between the TT and book-fluff. In the book-fluff the Space Marines are nigh-invulnerable warriors. On the TT they are just the run of the mill troopers that even Grots can defeat if lucky. Must add I would have liked seeing a gang of Grots take out a Space Marine-biker in the book-fluff like they did in a battle-report I read in the 90's in a WD.

My story about the commissars Zachary Carrus and Michelle Ionza and their life and crimes https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=123690
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post #35 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-16-14, 05:50 PM
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The Emperor of Mankind is immensely old. He is, in my opinion, the oldest living creature in the known galaxy. This of coarse has some exceptions such as the Necrons, C'tan, ect. Throughout the coarse of his life he did not acquire the knowledge of the creation of the Adeptus Astartes through his own personal experiences or knowledge. In the end he was required to strike a bargain with the Chaos Gods in order to get the genetic material for the creation of the Primarchs.

To my understanding the Emperor did not start the Space Marine program until after the primarchs were scattered (as seen in Deliverance Lost, via Corax's studies). The Emperor only understood how to create the Space Marines because he had the superior and nigh-perfect genetic blueprint of the Primarchs to down-scale to a point where he could mass-produce them. This of coarse was only really possible because of the Emperor's extreme intelligence. Even then the Emperor had to refine his understanding of the process - hence the Thunder Warriors. From what I've read in The Outcast Dead he didn't exactly get it right. He made it doable enough to conquer Terra, and given the vast span of the galaxy -- Terra wasn't exactly a tough conquest by comparison to some of the worlds, kingdoms, xenos, or empires the Imperium later encountered. We are also given hints that the Emperor was only able to create the Astartes by learning from his mistakes with the Thunder Warriors.

My point is that to create the Astartes was no simple process. It took the will of the Chaos Gods combined with the intelligence of the greatest psyker in known existence to even make the process possible.

I do not think other races will ever be capable of such a feat. The Tau certainly won't be doing anything like it. They are far more technologically driven rather than biologically. On the other extreme the Tyranids have little need as their evolutionary process will ultimately breed warriors stronger than Astartes given enough genetic material and time. As for the Eldar, either side, they do not view Humanity with true respect. It is likely to them that they believe had the Eldar Empire never fallen than even the Emperor's Space Marine Legions would not have been able to conquer them. Its their arrogance that will prevent them from creating Eldar Astartes. Because in the mind of that particular xenos, they are already far superior to any Astartes or mon-keigh.


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The chaos gods abandoned Horus most likely because they saw the can of whoop ass coming their way and wanted out of the way so as not to get fucked up!
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post #36 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-16-14, 06:03 PM
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The Emperor isn't the oldest living creature. Asdrubael Vect of the Dark Eldar/Necrons (if you count them as living) and I'm sure many other older aliens that exist are older.

In addition, the Emperor isn't the only perpetual so perhaps there are some that have lived longer.

The Astartes are the products of technology from the Dark Age of Technology but furthered by the Emperor's genius and the bargain with the Pantheon. Humanity was tinkering with genetics long before the Emperor revealed himself and the first Astartes was made.

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post #37 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-16-14, 06:19 PM
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As for age, I was never certain. Also I'm aware the Emperor isn't the only Perpetual, but he is clearly the most gifted of their kind.

I've also never read anywhere that the Space Marines were developed via the Dark Age of Technology in any degree (be it knowledge obtained during that time or anything to do with that time) with the exception of perhaps some technologies (machines and such) that would have been required to produce them. Where did you read that?


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The chaos gods abandoned Horus most likely because they saw the can of whoop ass coming their way and wanted out of the way so as not to get fucked up!
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post #38 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-16-14, 08:47 PM
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The Emperor isn't the oldest living creature. Asdrubael Vect of the Dark Eldar/Necrons (if you count them as living) and I'm sure many other older aliens that exist are older.

In addition, the Emperor isn't the only perpetual so perhaps there are some that have lived longer.

The Astartes are the products of technology from the Dark Age of Technology but furthered by the Emperor's genius and the bargain with the Pantheon. Humanity was tinkering with genetics long before the Emperor revealed himself and the first Astartes was made.
It's unknown how old Vect is, he is at least 10k years old while the last I heard the emp is at least 48k years old. Also according to vect he was 'young' during slaanesh's birth. So I doubt he is older than E and I wouldn't count the crons as they aren't flesh and blood, if you include them then you have to include the Chaos gods and c'tan.


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As for age, I was never certain. Also I'm aware the Emperor isn't the only Perpetual, but he is clearly the most gifted of their kind.

I've also never read anywhere that the Space Marines were developed via the Dark Age of Technology in any degree (be it knowledge obtained during that time or anything to do with that time) with the exception of perhaps some technologies (machines and such) that would have been required to produce them. Where did you read that?
Their armor and weapons were, well the proto-thunder warrior version. Humanity did start really getting into advance gene-engineering during the dark age. So true that much of the stuff to make astartes arose during then. One HH book had a world with a slower and bulkier version of power armor ,compared to Mk2(?) power armor, and said armor was an stc version. Also didn't Caliban have a bolt pistol like weapon, non-explosive version,

Last edited by locustgate; 03-16-14 at 08:55 PM.
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post #39 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-17-14, 04:33 AM
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One HH book had a world with a slower and bulkier version of power armor ,compared to Mk2(?) power armor, and said armor was an stc version. Also didn't Caliban have a bolt pistol like weapon, non-explosive version,
It was, a verzion of the Mk. II Bolt pistol using black-powder weaponry. Whether or not this was from an S.T.C no one really knows. however the novel, god I for get the name, that follows the rise of El'Johnson the Lion shows that Caliban had an unsuaully high level of technology for a planet that was still living in Medieval times.

There was also a short story of a SM Chapter encounter and destroying a planet who's human inhabitants used armor similar to the early Crusader Pattern power armor. S.T.C still effect the 40k race, and honestly I feel they are a touch of Star Trek brought to light in the grim darkness of the 40k future.

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nigh-invulnerable warriors.
I must say your wrong my freind. They are truely remarkable warriors capable of feats that are normally inhuman and stunning even for Astartes standards. However in Fluff, and recently in alarming numbers, I find more and more writers that tell of the mortality of the Astartes. I never read an SM novel where casualties didn't number in the dozens, if not hundreds of Astartes. True they killed twice/thrice that number of it still came down to the simple effect of "Space Marines can Die, including the more Elite Veterans."

Table-Top is a game, and like all games you find the strengths and weaknesses of an army and roll with it. Fluff, like Star Wars/Star Trek before it, is quite debatable.



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post #40 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-17-14, 06:40 AM
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The Astartes are the products of technology from the Dark Age of Technology but furthered by the Emperor's genius and the bargain with the Pantheon.
That last part may or may not be true, and I'm more inclined to the latter.
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