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post #11 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-13-14, 07:19 PM
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Just in seem strange that Tau are so far a head in tech in comparison with the imperium but far behind in terms of DNA. I thought that would be something would take great interest in. As for eldar i know they're stuck up, sure i play them as my main army but if you take biel tan for example are always looking for an extra advantage in combat so they once again become powerful. Its not like they dont have the tech and im sure they could make some more graceful version then the imperium.
Respectfully, the other races are comparitive to the Space Marines, especially the Eldar. Given warriors may be lesser or greater than their counterparts in another army.

On the gene-crafting , I think it would also come down to a trade-off in what you're juicing them up with to achieve a specific result. Sure, the eldar could bio-engineer one of their kind to be as tall as an Avatar of Khaine, strong as a Primarch, and smart as Eldrad, but then what? Bow down and kiss their feet? Everything in the Eldar environment is designed for their species and now you're introducing a new element. Or possibly they did 15 million years ago and realized that a super Eldar giant tends to become hyper-egotistical, even more so than their normal narcissim, and tries to take over the universe for themselves, so no more of those.

On the Tau side, I would think the Ethereals would be incredibly cautious about upsetting the apple cart, considering the implications of Commander Farsight's 'liberation'. A super Tau warrior might turn around and wonder why they're even listening to the Ethereals, so they'll become the new Tau Emperor. Compared to the other races, the Tau developing gene-crafting to make anything close to an Astares are still another 10,000 years in the making.

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post #12 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-13-14, 07:19 PM
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Just in seem strange that Tau are so far a head in tech in comparison with the imperium but far behind in terms of DNA.
The Tau really aren't ahead of the Imperium in basically every tech field bar plasma weapons. The Imperium builds bigger, faster, stronger and more reliable tech than the Tau almost across the board.

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I thought that would be something would take great interest in.
I think genetic engineering would go against the Tau's caste system. Each caste is bred for a specific role, everyone in Tau society is born with a per-determined role to play in it. Messing with their genes after that not only creates the possibility/opportunity to cross caste lines but also create new castes basically completely undermining the born-for-purpose nature of Tau society. As such it doesn't surprise me that it isn't something that appears the Tau have even thought about.

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As for eldar i know they're stuck up, sure i play them as my main army but if you take biel tan for example are always looking for an extra advantage in combat so they once again become powerful. Its not like they dont have the tech and im sure they could make some more graceful version then the imperium.
It's not about their arrogance, its about the way they view war and the way they view soldiers. This is about to get long and heavy but bear with me.

Firstly, the Eldar do not approach warfare in the same way humans do. A human soldier is expected to be able to preform (with his squad) almost any action conceivable of an infantryman with a relatively high degree of competence. They are equipped and trained to secure buildings, hunt tanks, dig trenches, assault enemy lines, etc. Every marine a rifleman and all that. But this is not how the Eldar operate. An Eldar 'soldier' is expected to preform only a narrow selection of actions with a very high degree of skill. If it is his job to hunt tanks, then he will be the best tank hunter on the battlefield but he'll be useless in assaulting enemy lines. That's someone elses job. A human army is the sum of its parts but an Eldar army is much more because each part is specifically designed to work together. Secondly, the Eldar view war as dangerous to their spiritual well-being. One of the biggest parts of joining an Aspect Temple is leaving your soul behind, learning to wear a 'war-face' and cognitively disassociate yourself from what you are about to do. An Eldar at war is not an Eldar, merely part of one. And the least part of one at that. Thirdly, the Eldar view total devotion to one area of life as a failure. You are simply not supposed to walk one path forever. Exarch's are those Eldar so devoted to a Path of War that they are unable to leave, they are the finest soldiers the Eldar race can field and they are universally pitted and feared. Because they have lost what it means to be Eldar. Becoming genetically engineered for battle forces an Eldar to walk the Path of War for the rest of their life, it leaves them unable to disassociate themselves from the violence and it does not improve the entire army, merely part of it.

The Tau also do not approach warfare the same way that humans do. Human wars are fought over territory, over resources, over things that are to be taken and held. The Tau do not fight that way. You can see it clear as day in the Damocles Crusade: humanity pushed and the Tau fell back; the Tau pushed back and humanity stood and died. A human soldier is expected to fight and die at his post, humanity views last stands and sacrifices as heroic but the Tau do not. A Tau soldier is no more expected to fight against impossible odds then he is expected to commit suicide, the two actions are identical in Tau culture. Further the methodology with which the Tau fight is difficult to improve through genes. Humans have always fought in a way where being stronger, faster and tougher makes you a better soldier, and those things can be improved in a person through genetic manipulation. But to the Tau patience, hand-eye coordination and steady hands are more important and those things are far harder to change on a genetic level.

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post #13 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-13-14, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
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Ok obviously I'm missing something I thought tau were way ahead of the imperium. Like flying tank battlesuits and pulse rifles. Also ye I get how both armies fight but I could help but think would space marines equivalent not to do the dire avenger job for example. But good point about ethereals not liking it

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post #14 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-13-14, 09:35 PM
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The Tau really aren't ahead of the Imperium in basically every tech field bar plasma weapons. The Imperium builds bigger, faster, stronger and more reliable tech than the Tau almost across the board.

I think genetic engineering would go against the Tau's caste system. Each caste is bred for a specific role, everyone in Tau society is born with a per-determined role to play in it. Messing with their genes after that not only creates the possibility/opportunity to cross caste lines but also create new castes basically completely undermining the born-for-purpose nature of Tau society. As such it doesn't surprise me that it isn't something that appears the Tau have even thought about.
The Imp does build bigger and stronger but the tau vehicles and ships are faster and far more reliable. Tau trooper armour is far ahead to standard IG, or should I say Militaryman since the name change. The tau fire warrior armor has a full communication gear, a grunt can communicate with ships while IG require a com.man and a heavy vox caster. The ig armor is weaker than fire warrior armor. The tau armor has inbuilt hostile enviro gear, and airtight. Fire warrior helms also has zoom functions. And then there is the tau's stealth gear. In shadowsun a trooper lost a limb and was told the earth caste would regrow him a new one. [Fire warrior, Fire Caste, Shadowsun, Tau Empire ed 6,4 Tau ed3]

No where has there ever been anything to say the tau are against genetic engineering, that being said I doubt they would make a Earth caste builder into a killing machine and vice versa.

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Ok obviously I'm missing something I thought tau were way ahead of the imperium.
Some areas yes others no.
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post #15 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-13-14, 11:28 PM
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Also ye I get how both armies fight but I could help but think would space marines equivalent not to do the dire avenger job for example.
Dire Avengers are generally a fairly small part of a much larger force. Is it worth damning those eldar to walk the Path of War for the rest of their lives just to improve part of the army?

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The Imp does build bigger and stronger but the tau vehicles and ships are faster and far more reliable.
I'm not totally sure what scale you're talking about so I'll just clarify what I meant.

Imperial Space Ships are faster than anything the Tau can build because they are capable of fully accessing the warp.

Reliable isn't really the word I meant I just couldn't think of a concise way to get across the fact that Leman Russ' can run on grass clippings and las-packs can recharge through sunlight.

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Tau trooper armour is far ahead to standard IG, or should I say Militaryman since the name change. The tau fire warrior armor has a full communication gear, a grunt can communicate with ships while IG require a com.man and a heavy vox caster. The ig armor is weaker than fire warrior armor. The tau armor has inbuilt hostile enviro gear, and airtight. Fire warrior helms also has zoom functions.
Tau armour is superior to flak armour (in terms of protection from most things) but is on par with Carapace armour (which the Imperium probably makes more of than the Tau make armour period), below power armour (which the Imperium might actually make as much of as the Tau) and waay below Terminator armour. IG have all the communication gear they need in their helmets, the com-man is as much about logistics and authorization as it is about technology. Hostile enviro gear; like winter coats and gas-masks, which come standard with certain deployments. Power armour is self-powered and void-proof, Terminator armour can withstand nuclear fusion at point blank range. But a zoom function! They decided to build binoculars into their helmets, that's game over man. Never mind zoom, infra-red, night-vision and heartbeat monitors are standard in power armour helmets. Or the fact that a pair of binoculars takes up less space than a Tau's helmet.

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In shadowsun a trooper lost a limb and was told the earth caste would regrow him a new one.
The Imperium can do that too, hell they can grow people in tanks and keep them from aging. They don't bother for most soldiers because in the time it takes to grow that soldier a new arm, and ship it to the front, he could've been outfitted with a bionic (which has several improvements over flesh) and redeployed to the front-lines already.

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that being said I doubt they would make a Earth caste builder into a killing machine and vice versa.
It's not that they would, I agree that's unlikely, it's that they could. If the Tau develop genetic manipulation then it forces them to acknowledge the fact that it is now possible, albeit unlikely, for someone born in the Earth caste to become Fire caste or Air caste or, god forbid, an Ethereal. Further, Marines are not born to be Marines, they prove themselves. They are a meritocracy, the antithesis of a caste system. Every Fire Warrior was born to be a Fire Warrior, how come only some were made into Fire Marines?

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post #16 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-14-14, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
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Well let's say the tau were to build a MEQ. They would more then likey be ethereal bodyguards then front line soldiers. Think of it as the ethereals decided to make a new type of warrior to protect them, which was born to be their bodyguards. Would not make sense. Because of what I have seen of ethereal bodyguards they're not much. ( thinking of the fire warrior game here)

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post #17 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-14-14, 12:31 PM
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Imperial Space Ships are faster than anything the Tau can build because they are capable of fully accessing the warp.

Reliable isn't really the word I meant I just couldn't think of a concise way to get across the fact that Leman Russ' can run on grass clippings and las-packs can recharge through sunlight.

Tau armour is superior to flak armour (in terms of protection from most things) but is on par with Carapace armour (which the Imperium probably makes more of than the Tau make armour period), below power armour (which the Imperium might actually make as much of as the Tau) and waay below Terminator armour. IG have all the communication gear they need in their helmets, the com-man is as much about logistics and authorization as it is about technology. Hostile enviro gear; like winter coats and gas-masks, which come standard with certain deployments.

It's not that they would, I agree that's unlikely, it's that they could. If the Tau develop genetic manipulation then it forces them to acknowledge the fact that it is now possible, albeit unlikely, for someone born in the Earth caste to become Fire caste or Air caste or, god forbid, an Ethereal. Further, Marines are not born to be Marines, they prove themselves. They are a meritocracy, the antithesis of a caste system. Every Fire Warrior was born to be a Fire Warrior, how come only some were made into Fire Marines?
I was talking about Impulse not warp.

Call it Alternative fuels, that being said I have no clue what a tau vehicle runs on.

I was talking in comparison to Flak. Carapace is in no way standard issue armor. 100% of Fire warriors are equiped with FW armor while 1.x10^-X% of Standard Guardsmen are equipped with carapace armor. Why did you bring up SM armor, I never even compared it to FW's. I said that the IG haz gear WASN'T in built.

Probably what they already do to VIP Caste members turn their descendents into enhanced Caste members. If a tau's parent and his/hers grandparents are well renowned they are given special privileges, i.e. retiring at and early age, mating out of caste (no ramification on the children). I thought I said that they wouldn't engineer someone out of caste.

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post #18 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-15-14, 04:52 AM
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To circle back why there aren't Space Marine equivalents in the armies (notably Tau) is that the Emperor (probably) received a big helping hand from Chaos to get things to work.

Some cultures are too wary (like the Eldar), incapable (like the Tyranids and possibly the Tau), or just can't be damned to bother (like the Orks).

The creation of the Primarchs--of which the Space Marines are based upon--is not something to be taken lightly. It requires more than the simple mastery of science.

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Also I find the comparison between Imperial Guard armor and firewarrior armor unfair. It's comparing apples to oranges.

The Tau value each individual warrior. And rightly so, since there are (relatively) so few of them.

The Imperium has men to spend whereas materiel is more scarce. Of course they'll spend their abundant resource first.

It only makes sense.
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post #19 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-15-14, 09:40 AM
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Each faction or race, generally speaking, does have a Space Marine equivalent in the form of various elite soldiers that fulfil a broadly similar role to the Adeptus Astartes. However, one of the key points is that pretty much every playable 40k race has a different philosophy of warfare compared to the Imperium which alters the specific need for such soldiers. For example the Eldar style (both Craftworld and Dark) of warfare is largely based on speed and, in the Craftworlder's case, Aspect Warriors (who follow the very specific/specialised teachings of the Aspect/Phoenix Lords). A Space Marine-style warrior would be incompatible with that, and in desperate circumstances they can utilise wraith warriors anyway.

If you just mean genetically enhanced soldiers then most factions probably employ them to varying extents.

And in regards to the Tau/Imperial technology, it is established that the Imperium maintains more advanced technology but it is certainly not general-issue/universal.

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To circle back why there aren't Space Marine equivalents in the armies (notably Tau) is that the Emperor (probably) received a big helping hand from Chaos to get things to work.

Some cultures are too wary (like the Eldar), incapable (like the Tyranids and possibly the Tau), or just can't be damned to bother (like the Orks).

The creation of the Primarchs--of which the Space Marines are based upon--is not something to be taken lightly. It requires more than the simple mastery of science.
Another good point if that is what the OP is referring to. Even the predecessors of the Space Marines, the Thunder Warriors, who were created by the genius of the Emperor and the greatest human geneticists and scientists (without the aid of the warp as far as we know) were unstable (and useless in the long-term). Given that the Primarchs were created with the explicit aid of the Chaos Gods (apparently Vengeful Spirit as good as confirms this) and that the Space Marines were created based on the template of the Primarchs, it stands to reason that they truly are unique and could not be replicated by other factions. And if the Emperor and greatest human scientists couldn't create a stable Space Marine-style warrior without the help of the Chaos Gods then I don't give other factions much of a chance.



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post #20 of 69 (permalink) Old 03-15-14, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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They're very valid points alright. let say for example other armies could make the marines equivalents how would they act and what would they be armed with.

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