Were the Traitor Primarchs really betrayed by the Emperor? - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #1 of 138 (permalink) Old 07-27-08, 12:09 AM Thread Starter
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Default Were the Traitor Primarchs really betrayed by the Emperor?

a few examples could be Magnus and Perturabo.

Here is the beginning of my fluff for my Iron Warriors Eighth Grand Company https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...ad.php?t=51842

"A fortress is a living thing: the commander its brain, the walls its bones, the sensors its eyes and ears, the troops its blood, their weapons its fists. This tells us two things: If one organ fails, the whole dies. And if the whole dies, no single organ can survive alone."
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post #2 of 138 (permalink) Old 07-27-08, 12:40 AM
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IMHO none of them really were betrayed by the Emperor. That was just the way each of them perceived it after horus planted the idea that the Emperor was using them all so that he could ascend to godhood (which this idea was given to horus by the chaos gods when he was being "saved".) It really was just a matter of which primarch was more loyal to, Horus as the Warmaster (which essentially was that he was to operate on the Emperor's behalf) or the Emperor himself.

"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has though and purpose which functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bio-engineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if it is aware of us at all, it must know us only as Prey."
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post #3 of 138 (permalink) Old 07-27-08, 03:53 AM
 
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None were actually betrayed by the Emperor. The closest is Magnus, but it is said Horus redirected the Space Wolves to attack them instead of just bringing Magnus to a court hearing for breaking the no-sorcery pact.
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post #4 of 138 (permalink) Old 07-27-08, 04:38 AM
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They weren't really betrayed but manipulated by the Emperor. I dont think Emperor is a good guy, hes just another Chaos god trying to control and manipulate others to his will.
He exploited each of the Primarchs according o their strengths and their weaknesses, like Angron was sent into only bloody assaults or when slaughtering an entire population.
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post #5 of 138 (permalink) Old 07-27-08, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exitus_10 View Post
They weren't really betrayed but manipulated by the Emperor. I dont think Emperor is a good guy, hes just another Chaos god trying to control and manipulate others to his will.
He exploited each of the Primarchs according o their strengths and their weaknesses, like Angron was sent into only bloody assaults or when slaughtering an entire population.
That's a rather hard pill to swallow as every book written that includes any mention of the Emperor always paints him in either the light of this holy, divine, all good being or (if from the standpoint of the traitor legions) the false god/corpse emperor. He didn't really exploit the Primarchs, he played to their strengths as any good commander would do. Why would you send Angron into a situation that needed finesse? I'm pretty sure Angron didn't mind being sent on bloody assaults or slaughtering entire populations. According to all the fluff I've read, the Emperor did not betray or exploit anybody but rather was betrayed by his own "sons". Besides, all the primarchs owe their existence to the Emperor as he's the one that created them in his own likeness, giving each one a part of the Emperor's ability (Magnus had the psyker ability, Horus the indomitable will to conquer, Angron the bloodlust, Emperor's Children the precise and strategic planning, etc.)

"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has though and purpose which functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bio-engineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if it is aware of us at all, it must know us only as Prey."
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post #6 of 138 (permalink) Old 07-27-08, 05:15 AM
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They were definitely the betrayers.

Look at Mortarion. When the Destroyer Hive infested his body it reminded him of the time right before the Emperor stepped in to save his life. I'd bet all I own that he wished that the Emperor could have saved him rather than Nurgle.

As for Magnus, it wasn't just the Emperor, Horus had a hand in trying to turn another of his brothers to Chaos. He was a master of psychology and did it anyway he could.
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post #7 of 138 (permalink) Old 07-27-08, 06:46 AM
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IMHO the only Primach to be betrayed by the big fella was Konrad Cruze. The Emperor used him as a terror tatic and then when he became to effective he got had up on War Crimes basically. Thats bullshit in my opinion. The weapon is only as dangerous as the man who weilds it. This was before the Heresy had started. Horus then used it to his advantage.

Horus and the others weren't betrayed by the Emperor, they just got a better offer from somebody else. They were the Betrayers. Magnus was betrayed by Horus, not the Emperor.
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post #8 of 138 (permalink) Old 07-27-08, 07:30 PM
 
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The Emperor betrayed the Chaos Gods. Then Horus betrayed the Emperor. The Chaos Gods betrayed Horus after he'd killed the Emperor.

The Emperor really began the whole cycle. If he hadn't either betrayed the Chaos Gods in the first place, or borrowed their power to create the Primarches, then the Chaos Gods wouldn't have had to turn Horus and use him as a tool to destroy the Emperor.

Not that it matters now. Everything worked out for the best - both the Emperor and Horus are dead and the Imperium is stagnant and ignorant, feeding the Chaos Gods on their superstitious, mindless worship until the end of time.
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post #9 of 138 (permalink) Old 07-27-08, 07:42 PM
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how did chaos betray horus the emperor killed him in the end with a massive psycic attack that obliteraed his soul
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post #10 of 138 (permalink) Old 07-27-08, 09:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NoiseMarine View Post
how did chaos betray horus the emperor killed him in the end with a massive psycic attack that obliteraed his soul
Yes, yes, we've all heard the story. Horus turns traitor, declares his allegiance to Chaos, turns his brother Primarches against the Emperor, pulls an ambush on the Loyalist SMs and massacres them along with a loyal Primarch, causes a civil war that halts the Great Crusade and kills countless billions of Imperial citizens, then he sieges Terra, inexplicably lowers the shields on his ship (and his ship alone), and then personally kills his brother Sanguinius.

Enter the Emperor. Who, supposedly, sees all this (Horus a warp-twisted madman laughing over the corpse of his weakling brother while declaring his unending fealty to Chaos and his hatred of the Emperor) and still thinks Horus can be saved (not a great stretch of the imagination, the Emperor was a cretin). So they fight, and Horus beats the Emperor to within an inch of his life, while sustaining no fatal wounds himself.

Then (and this is the really hilarious bit) in walks one random loyalist Terminator who Horus kills. And THIS is what finally convinces the Emperor that perhaps Horus is a wee bit beyond salvation? So he doesn't care about the death of Sanguinius? Or the deaths of countless billions? It was one terminator that did it. And then the Emperor insta-kills Horus, because he could have done that all along but decided that having his LUNGS RIPPED OUT isn't proof enough that Horus doesn't like daddy anymore.

Does that make the slightest bit of sense? It's Imperial propaganda. Horus killed the Emperor, then the Chaos Gods claimed his soul (he did sell it to them). After all, they don't want to off the Emperor only to have his son take over - what's the difference between one powercrazed cretin and another? Much better to leave the Imperium leaderless and scared. Breeds better worshippers that way.

Maybe the Imperium really believes that happened. Dorn saw the Emperor's body and Horus a pile of ash, and believing that the Emperor was just a benevolent (but incredibly, incredibly stupid) guy who couldn't accept that his son was evil made the most sense. To a moron like Dorn that'd make sense anyway. It's fairly obvious what really happened.
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