Did the Emporere make a mistake by not telling the primarchs about chaos? - Page 3 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Fluff Discuss GW background material here. All those bits in the Codex that aren't stat blocks or special rules. Post your custom character/chapter/army background in our Homebrew Fluff subforum!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-18-14, 10:48 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 280
Reputation: 4
Default

It is hard to say if the Emperor made any mistakes. The question that has not come up is "what is the Emp's goal?"

I do not believe for a second that the Emperor had no idea the Heresy was going to happen. "Horus Rising", the first book about the heresy, shows he knew exactly what was going on. No one could understand why Rogal Dorn and his legion were being recalled to Terra to fortify the planet. Horus thought he may have been in trouble. Calling back Dorn (the best defensive Primarch of the bunch) makes about as much sense as Roosevelt calling back Mcarthur to fortify Washington DC right before we dropped the A-bomb on Japan. The Great Crusade was over, we won.
Zooey72 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-19-14, 01:30 AM
Senior Member
 
BlackGuard's Avatar
BlackGuard's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: In the shadows ...
Posts: 703
Reputation: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey72 View Post
It is hard to say if the Emperor made any mistakes. The question that has not come up is "what is the Emp's goal?"

I do not believe for a second that the Emperor had no idea the Heresy was going to happen. "Horus Rising", the first book about the heresy, shows he knew exactly what was going on. No one could understand why Rogal Dorn and his legion were being recalled to Terra to fortify the planet. Horus thought he may have been in trouble. Calling back Dorn (the best defensive Primarch of the bunch) makes about as much sense as Roosevelt calling back Mcarthur to fortify Washington DC right before we dropped the A-bomb on Japan. The Great Crusade was over, we won.
You make a good point. I have also never bought into the belief that the Emperor was completely blind to what was going to happen. In fact, even if he was blind in matters of divination because of the Gods, then he was also easily intelligent enough to realize that the Gods were behind it and thus something was up.

For me, I believe the shock came not with the Heresy but who led it. Horus was like a son to him and no doubt the Emperor raised him and indoctrinated him with the mindset that Horus would be his greatest son -- the one to keep his brothers in modest check. As an added assurance he turned Russ into the Executioner incase even Horus got out of line.

I have a hard time believing the Emperor ever believed the likes of Angron or Curze were ever loyal. For them it was always a matter of time until they rebelled. Both of these primarchs were very broken and the Emperor no doubt saw right through him.

Another reason to believe the Emperor knew something would happen is because he was constructing the Imperial Webway. If ever there was a time for the Gods to use their ace it was prior to the Emperor completing his project. Had it succeeded, then Humanity would be free of the Warp. Also we must remember the Lost Primarchs, the two that were created by GW for us. Lore wise they are believed to either have been lost in the Warp, killed prior to discovery, or executed by Russ. Primarchs may have rebelled long before Horus got corrupted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldman78 View Post
The chaos gods abandoned Horus most likely because they saw the can of whoop ass coming their way and wanted out of the way so as not to get fucked up!
BlackGuard is offline  
post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-19-14, 02:17 AM
Member
 
Scrad's Avatar
Scrad's Flag is: Australia
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 77
Reputation: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey72 View Post
No one could understand why Rogal Dorn and his legion were being recalled to Terra to fortify the planet. Horus thought he may have been in trouble. Calling back Dorn (the best defensive Primarch of the bunch) makes about as much sense as Roosevelt calling back Mcarthur to fortify Washington DC right before we dropped the A-bomb on Japan. The Great Crusade was over, we won.
To fortify Terra for the conclusion of the webway project. Something that would still require a vast amount of resources and lives to maintain and explore. The Eldar wouldn't have taken this intrusion lightly - plus whatever else is roaming through the webway. The Emperor wanted to fortify his base of operations to push with his next stage of the Crusade and limit use of the warp in one fell swoop.
Scrad is offline  
 
post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-19-14, 11:07 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 52
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackGuard View Post
You make a good point. I have also never bought into the belief that the Emperor was completely blind to what was going to happen. In fact, even if he was blind in matters of divination because of the Gods, then he was also easily intelligent enough to realize that the Gods were behind it and thus something was up.

For me, I believe the shock came not with the Heresy but who led it. Horus was like a son to him and no doubt the Emperor raised him and indoctrinated him with the mindset that Horus would be his greatest son -- the one to keep his brothers in modest check. As an added assurance he turned Russ into the Executioner incase even Horus got out of line.

I have a hard time believing the Emperor ever believed the likes of Angron or Curze were ever loyal. For them it was always a matter of time until they rebelled. Both of these primarchs were very broken and the Emperor no doubt saw right through him.

Another reason to believe the Emperor knew something would happen is because he was constructing the Imperial Webway. If ever there was a time for the Gods to use their ace it was prior to the Emperor completing his project. Had it succeeded, then Humanity would be free of the Warp. Also we must remember the Lost Primarchs, the two that were created by GW for us. Lore wise they are believed to either have been lost in the Warp, killed prior to discovery, or executed by Russ. Primarchs may have rebelled long before Horus got corrupted.
I agree. I always think Emperor is well acquainted with potential Heresy.

Actually, Emperor is not blinded about His Primarch's possible corruption. Quite opposite, if anything. That is why Wolf King's Wyrd is executioner; it is explicitly said in HH series that Russ is made to be Emperor's executioner, like Horus is made to be Emperor's Warmaster; according to Ulvuruth Heoroth, Horus was not become Warmaster because Emperor particularly favored him more than any other sons. Because his Wyrd is Commanding Army, and becoming Warmaster is his destiny.

I consider Angron, Curze, and even Lorgar are ultimately disposables. Emperor actually predicted some of his sons will rebel against rule of Terra and prepared accordingly. In fact he already executed two Primarchs, destroyed two Legions and expunged their whole memories and records from universe.
Even their statues are removed; despite traitor Primarchs' are not. But he could not anticipate that Horus himself and half of the remaining Primarchs will become traitor and plunge Imperium to Chaos. Horus is His one of the few blind spots. And Ruinous Powers actually accomplished an impossibility. Thus Emperor made a critical mistake by assuming some of his sons are incorruptible and, even if they are corruptible, he could deal with them accordingly.

Last edited by Ecumene; 04-19-14 at 11:13 AM.
Ecumene is offline  
post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-19-14, 11:07 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 52
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farseer Darvaleth View Post
Hmm, interesting theory. You're saying he knew a Chaos insurrection was inevitable, so he tried to "fix the fight" as it were by pushing certain, hopefully incompatible Primarchs to Chaos? But then Horus was not part of the plan, and he was able to unite the various incompatible factions together. Definitely a possibility.

Oh, and RE: Chaos bargain being canon, I believe it's covered in First Heretic from the Heresy series (incredible read either way, Dembski-Bowden is a god).
Hmm, I have collected whole of the HH series, and already read The First Heretic. However it is actually a long time ago; thus my memory could be impaired/or false. But if I remember correctly, Word Bearers are sent back through time-I don't think it is a mere fabricated illusion, but it could still have distorted or overlapped by itself, or intervention of some powerful Entities-and during their journey, saw full account of Primarch project, or manipulated to believe what Chaos want to show. Entire 'Primarchs are sons of both Emperor and Chaos Gods, Emperor and Chaos Gods sealed a contract, and then Emperor violated it' premise is said by no other than deamon prince of Slannesh, Ingethel. Thus, in that sense, I reread that brilliant book's controversial Part two, the Pilgrimage-which virtually constitutes the discussed matter-just now, and compiled it accordingly;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecumene View Post
You have seen nothing yet, but you already judge what is best for your species?
‘What more is there to see?’ asked Argel Tal.
Ingethel beckoned with its gnarled fingers. Close your eyes.
‘No.’ The captain took a calming breath. ‘I am finished with blind indulgence. Tell me what you wish to show us.’
I will show you how your primarch was born. I will show you why the Cadians called him the Favoured Son of the Four. The Emperor is not his only father.

Be careful, Argel Tal. These souls remain blind to you as long as you do not interfere with their work.
‘And if I did?’ he asked quietly.
Then one of the most powerful psychic forces in the history of life would be alerted to you, and would kill you where you stand. You are within the Anathema’s innermost sanctum. Here, it breeds its spawn.
‘The Anathema,’ Argel Tal repeated, looking around the colos-sal facility. The other Word Bearers walked to his side, none of them reaching for weapons just yet.
The Anathema. The creature you know as the God-Emperor.
Xaphen exhaled misty curls of vapour. ‘This… This is Terra. The Emperor’s gene-laboratories.’
Yes. Many years before the Anathema’s crusade to reclaim the stars.
Here, with the full clarity of its emotionless inhumanity, it has finished shaping its twenty children.
The Chaplain crossed to a table, where vials of blood span in a centrifuge, separating into layers within each glass vial.
‘If this is a vision of the past, how could the Emperor destroy us here?’
You are protected for now, Xaphen. That is all that matters. This is what transpires on Terra, as the elder empire burns with soul-fire. The Anathema senses it will soon be time to begin his Great Crusade.

The tongue you name Colchisian is a fragment of a primordial language. Colchisian… Cadian… these tongues were seeded onto your worlds in readiness for the coming age. The Emperor’s golden pets could not read those inscriptions, for they do not carry Lorgar’s blood in their veins. All of this was planned aeons ago.
‘And the Cadians?’
Their world was touched, as Colchis was touched. Seeds planted in abundance, all to flower in this moment.

You have been raised with tales of the primarchs that lead your Legions, but you have been fed centuries of lies. In a matter of moments, you will witness the truth. The Anathema dealt with the Powers of the Warp long before he left Earth on the Great Crusade.
The Anathema desired mighty sons, and the gods granted him the lore to forge them with a union of divine genetics and psychic sorcery. He came to my masters, hungry for answers, beseeching the gods for power.
With the lore they gave him, he shaped his twenty sons.
But treacheries have occurred. Oaths – sworn in blood and paid in soul – have been broken.
The Anathema now refuses to show humanity the Primordial Truth, and the gods of the warp grow wrathful.
The Anathema is keeping its twenty primarch sons and paying no price to the Powers that gifted him with the knowledge to shape them.

Is the most important one of all. Lorgar’s incubation pod will be carried to Colchis, to walk the first steps to enlightening humanity of the Primordial Truth, and the gods behind the stars. Without the gods, humanity will die, piece by piece, under the predation of the aliens that still lay claim to much of the galaxy. Those that remain will die as the eldar died: in agony, unable to see the Primordial Truth before their very eyes.
This is Fate. It is written in the stars. Lorgar knows that humanity needs divinity – it is what shaped his life and Legion. It is why he was chosen as the favoured son.

The pod rattled, spinning through the void, tumbling alone through the warp’s tides.
Burn marks and cracks appeared as the lurching journey continued, while mist the colour of madness seeped in through the armour cracks. The child within slept on as pain marred its features, now restless in its repose.
See how the gods of this galaxy treasured your primarch above the others, keeping him in the Sea of Souls for decades, preparing him for the role he would play in the ascension of mankind to divinity.
Lorgar felt their blessed touch more than any of his brothers.
If all of these narrations are GW-approved official canon, Emperor-Chaos Bargaining Theory leaves no room for questions. But this alone is not enough. Not at all. All of these descriptions are purely based on a deamon's remarks, and listeners are WB Legionnaires; why they bore no doubts and raised any question about Ingethel's veracity? They just listened, resented, agreed, and then 'enlightened'. As far as I know, only BL authors know the exact truth, and there is always possibility yet to be determined even among collaborators. Emperor-Chaos bargaining have been confirmed/ascertained as a firmly established canon(not possibility, but incontrovertible fact) by ADB or others?


p.s The First Heretic had said about 'Fate'. Scars said about the same fate and by extension, twisted fate(according to Scars, fate decreed Fulgrim to be sent to Chogoris and Jaghatai Khan to Chemos and certain arcane force in the universe prevented it somehow; Magnus also said "stories may meander, but the endings never change. Believe me, I have witnessed the authors"). It proposes us an interesting suggestion-because it means Heresy is predestined catastrophe after all; thus both players knew well about price and conducted appropriately. As already said, I personally endorse this theory; though I dissent necessary contract and subsequent 'betrayal' between Emperor and Chaos.

Last edited by Ecumene; 04-19-14 at 11:26 AM.
Ecumene is offline  
post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-19-14, 01:18 PM
Bane of Empires
 
Child-of-the-Emperor's Avatar
Child-of-the-Emperor's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 5,131
Reputation: 19
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock in Training View Post
Its funny, that the Emperor wanted to use this Webway so badly for galaxy dominance, but its only a mediocre escape rout to the dying Eldar lol.
The webway is certainly not a 'mediocre escape route' for the Eldar, without it they would likely have slipped into extinction long ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecumene View Post
Emperor had made quite a lot of irreversible mistakes during Heresy era.
I think such an opinion is very hard to support with clear evidence. We don't know what the Emperor's ultimate plans and intentions were, we don't know what his reasoning was for deceiving his sons and lying to his empire. We have never had an insight into the Emperor's mind or thought-processes, and based on a recent quote by AD-B it doesn't look like we ever will - certainly not in the upcoming Master of Mankind anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
If I remember right, up until they made a deal with the Emperor the chaos gods had had very little interaction with the material realm.
"Shattered worlds and long-forgotten civilisations dot the galaxy as testament to whole species that fell into damnation or destroyed themselves in the service of Chaos. Of these, the greatest were the Eldar - a race that once spanned the galaxy, now reduced to a few survivors adrift upon the cold void." - Page 24 Daemons Codex.

There is no reason to believe Chaos had little interaction with the galaxy pre-Emperor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecumene View Post
IAccording to Chaos(and Magnus the Red after Burning of Prospero), Primarchs are created by a clandestine compact between Emperor and Ruinous Powers. However we all know only too well deamons are incorrigibly perfidious, scheming creatures. They constantly lie and deceive without any scruple or compunction. Moreover deamons have no reason to say fine things about Anathema for all the world. And above all things, as far as I know, there are absolutely no any conclusive proofs or explicit, objective references or Words of God about supposed 'duplicity' of the Emperor. I think it is premature to beg the question 'Primarchs are created by means of Warp, thus Emperor musthave dealt with Ruinous Powers' before irrefutable, veritable evidences are adduced.
Spoilers from the upcoming HH novel Vengeful Spirit:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecumene View Post
Quite opposite, if anything. That is why Wolf King's Wyrd is executioner; it is explicitly said in HH series that Russ is made to be Emperor's executioner, like Horus is made to be Emperor's Warmaster
The acknowledgement comes from the Space Wolves though, not from any central Imperial command.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).
Child-of-the-Emperor is offline  
post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-19-14, 02:56 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 52
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
The webway is certainly not a 'mediocre escape route' for the Eldar, without it they would likely have slipped into extinction long ago.



I think such an opinion is very hard to support with clear evidence. We don't know what the Emperor's ultimate plans and intentions were, we don't know what his reasoning was for deceiving his sons and lying to his empire. We have never had an insight into the Emperor's mind or thought-processes, and based on a recent quote by AD-B it doesn't look like we ever will - certainly not in the upcoming Master of Mankind anyway.



"Shattered worlds and long-forgotten civilisations dot the galaxy as testament to whole species that fell into damnation or destroyed themselves in the service of Chaos. Of these, the greatest were the Eldar - a race that once spanned the galaxy, now reduced to a few survivors adrift upon the cold void." - Page 24 Daemons Codex.

There is no reason to believe Chaos had little interaction with the galaxy pre-Emperor.



Spoilers from the upcoming HH novel Vengeful Spirit:




The acknowledgement comes from the Space Wolves though, not from any central Imperial command.
Thanks you for letting me know-thus it is confirmed fact after all. Thus Emperor was truly duplicitous and perfidious person. My meager faith in His integrity is shattered utterly. I am quite dejected now. And I am really ashamed; I unwittingly committed a cardinal sin; namely antilogy. If the deamon's unilateral claims are dubious, thus lose credibility, Wolves claims must be either.
Ecumene is offline  
post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-19-14, 09:04 PM
Senior Member
 
Warlock in Training's Avatar
Warlock in Training's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,475
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
The webway is certainly not a 'mediocre escape route' for the Eldar, without it they would likely have slipped into extinction long ago.
I was not being totally serious about the comment. Yes the Web Way is a safe form of travel than the Warp, something the Emp wanted to cut off reliance wise completely as we know. Also the Web Way allows you to make accurate attacks while by passing space defenses all together as well.

Its a useful tool, but not a game changer in anyway as the Eldar use of it is only slowing down their extinction, and the Imperials as well Space Marines operate just fine without it as well.

IMO the Emp wasted valuable time on a minor project.
Warlock in Training is offline  
post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-20-14, 03:00 PM
Member
 
Scrad's Avatar
Scrad's Flag is: Australia
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 77
Reputation: 4
Default

Instantaneous and safe travel for one of the most populous humanoid races is hardly not a game changer.
The Emperor knew he had to ween humanity off the warp and minimize the Chaos threat before they made a major power play (example, HH) - huge project imo.

Last edited by Scrad; 04-20-14 at 03:06 PM.
Scrad is offline  
post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-20-14, 03:54 PM
Senior Member
 
Straken's_Fist's Avatar
Straken's_Fist's Flag is: South Georgia
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 1,094
Reputation: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock in Training View Post
...and the Imperials as well Space Marines operate just fine without it as well.

IMO the Emp wasted valuable time on a minor project.
You're kidding, right?

The Imperium is in a desperate situation during the closing years of the millennium: The nidz are only just getting started and no doubt the Hive Fleets arriving will only be getting larger and larger, and worse still they are not just arriving in the Galactic south anymore, but from the Northern territories too.
Then you have the 13th Black Crusade, that although contained for now, do seem to have a beach head in Cadia: Chaos control most the planet, the only thing containing them is the Imperial Navy in space. And outbreaks of Cultist-led rebellions in other Cadian sectors are rife.
Then you have the awakening of Necrons all over the galaxy, and the Orks doing their usual WAAGHS! all over the place. The Imperium is going to eventually reach a point very soon where they are stretched far too thin, with so many multiple threats to deal with on all fronts.
The Imperium is not "operating fine" with warp travel: You have all these threats on all frontiers, and the threat of rebellion from within, and the Imperium is completely screwed... And it's only a matter of time before the golden throne fails and the Astromincan light goes out, plunging the entire Imperium into a new Age of Strife, only infinitely worse this time with all the Xenos and Chaos knocking at the door...

The Webway would've solved a lot of the problems: Near-instantaneous travel means you can better respond to these threats. Right now, it can take decades for a distress signal to even be received, then a few decades more for help to arrive, which is often far too late. Imagine having the ability to mobilise and send an Imperial Guard regiment and Space Marine Chapters to respond to a invasion or rebellion within days, to any part of the galaxy. The tactical advantage over warp travel is massive: days versus decades. Also, think of the economic value with trade routes no longer being prone to piracy. Huge.
But it doesn't even stop at military and economic advantage: No more warp travel and dependence = Less exposure to Chaos. That is always a good thing.

Definitely not a "minor project." It would've taken the Humanity to a completely higher level of development, and the Emperor knew this.
Straken's_Fist is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Fluff

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome