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post #41 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 05:54 AM
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Malus,

I would rep you if I could.
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post #42 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 06:19 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Veteran Sergeant View Post
I dunno really how far I'd go praising the literary level of the Black Library novels. They're competently written, but they're just pulp fiction. The best of them are "decent", and a few border on downright silly. In the end, no matter how "adult" you try to theme it, 40K is still a cartoon universe full of pop-culture tropes that try to kill one another.

The reality is that teenagers and young adults love that kinda stuff. Just like a movie being rated R doesn't stop kids from wanting to see them, neither does the subject matter being "adult" in nature stop kids from reading these books. There's a very good reason why sexual themes are more or less forbidden, because Games Workshop knows its audience. And they don't want part of that audience getting caught with something their parents might take away. Especially since parents may be funding their purchases in whole or in part.

Teenagers aren't as dumb as you're making them out to be. Especially the demographic that plays 40K. And they'll eat up mass produced pulp action novels.
Your description of 40k novels as pulp is probably the best way to think of BL's works, though with the exception of Sandy Mitchell I have yet to read a 40k novel that was "competently written" (Even he made a pure lemon with Greater Good). Remember though that pulp is written to be shallow and fun, not deep. 40k goes back and forth between targeting a young audience and an older audience, but not in terms of its gore factor but in how they deal with mature themes of the brutality and harsh realities of war.

I think the lack of sexual themes has less to do with fear of parents and more to do with the fact that GW thinks that 40k fans do not want to read about sex.

@Jacobite : I never huff. And if y'all are not bothered by the idea of female space marines, why do try people so hard to prove that they are a bad idea?

I really do not want to make this a rehashing of an old dance. So why don't y'all agree to drop the FSM hate.
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post #43 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 06:38 AM Thread Starter
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Monotheistic
Why?

For me, the idea that every planet has its own pantheon of spirits and gods is fascinating. The concept that there is an entire spiritual dimension to the Imperium that is deeper than "Emperor good, chaos bad" opens the door for all sorts of interesting stories and themes that are a lot richer than four rather banal antagonistic gods, two of whom represent concepts (change and pleasure) that you would have to be pretty weird to consider evil.
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post #44 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 06:50 AM
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@Jacobite: I never huff. And if y'all are not bothered by the idea of female space marines, why do try people so hard to prove that they are a bad idea?
Haha good one, that made me laugh. It's got nothing to do with them being female or it being a good or bad idea. It's exactly the same reason people have an issue with the idea of a Grey Knight being corrupted. It's got to do with the fact it has no basis in the current fluff despite you trying so hard to prove otherwise. And you know what, like Squats returning (sorry clock reset), every time you bring it up the little GW monkeys reset the clock on it.

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I really do not want to make this a rehashing of an old dance. So why don't y'all agree to drop the FSM hate.
Could have fooled anybody who remembers you. If you didn't want to go through it why'd you bring it up again. Or you could stop banging the same lonely sad drum in the corner thinking it's a different tune. It's not and it's boring.

That's number 3 now. So I will leave you to your nice bridge.

Last edited by Jacobite; 01-17-14 at 07:05 AM.
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post #45 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 07:07 AM Thread Starter
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Haha good one, that made me laugh. It's got nothing to do with them being female. It's got to do with the fact it has no basis in fluff despite you trying so hard to prove otherwise.

Or you could stop banging the same lonely sad drum in the corner thinking it's a different tune. It's not and it's boring.

That's number 3 now.
I did not bring it up, Veteran Sergeant was the one who decided bring the issue up.

You are avoiding the question. I asked why is it a bad idea. Fluff changes. The Horus Heresy and chaos gods did not exist in the 1st edition while robot soldiers and squats were part of the lore. Space marines were not all male until someone said that is the case (which I am told is 1988, several months after Rogue Trader was published). Why do you think that all space marines being male is a good idea?

Personally I think the idea of space marines being boys recruited at childhood is profoundly stupid, how can anyone tell who is going to be a great warrior before they turn 13? How much battle experience can a child have before they have their adult body? If I were retconning things I would have astartes come from the ranks of the various Imperial services like the arbites, guard, navy, PDF, ect. Soldiers (men and women) who went above and beyond the call of duty and performed heroic feats in the face of overwhelming odds. These soldiers would be approached by the chapters and offered to join their ranks. Then they would be genetically and cybernetically modified to become the Emperor's chosen defenders of humanity.

That is my opinion, you can agree or disagree, but if you take the stance that whatever GW says in this moment is best then there is nothing to discuss.

Last edited by GabrialSagan; 01-17-14 at 07:10 AM.
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post #46 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 07:14 AM
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Why?
Because it represents an ever greater tragedy. The Emperor, knowing what superstition and religion could and would do tried to remove it completely and instate an empire of logic, reason, and science. He went so far as to claim he was not a god when others worshiped, humiliating one of his own sons for doing so.

And in the end, in the present, he is worshiped as a god in a rotting empire where logic and reason are often considered heresy and the likes of superstition and religion are dominant forces.


There being multiple god like figures worshiped throughout the Imperium robs that entire tragedy of meaning for me, and likely the vast majority. It works in fantasy, because as I have said before fantasy takes place on a monumentally smaller setting.


As an aside for this thread: why do you assume that female space marines are at all a good idea?

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how can anyone tell who is going to be a great warrior before they turn 13?
If this is all you really take from why boys just entering puberty are the prime target for transforming into spae marines than I am afraid you miss the point entirely.

And I do believe you were told the clarification article was released four months after the release of rogue trader. Not even six months went by, gives it quite a bit of weight.

Damnation is paved on good intentions; subtle and sugar coated or blunt and honest
A hero is someone who steps up when everyone else backs down.
Popularity is what people strive for when they lack the strength to be themselves.


Seriously, is it really that hard to write reviews without spoilers?

Reporting Posts - read this

Last edited by darkreever; 01-17-14 at 07:18 AM.
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post #47 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 07:24 AM
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All I see in this thread is Gabe Sagan (once again) trying to justify female space marines.

And the old lore, from what I've seen of it, is nowhere near the quality of the current setting. I think the more serious and tragic tones are much better, the idea of the heroes being on the losing side and doom apparent is a refreshing change from all the happy ending sci fi stories dominating the genre.


Nonsense is our Salvation

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post #48 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 07:28 AM
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Gabriel, I've seen you on these forums for several years now.

Your line of questioning however is having the same shock factor everyone had when Horus turned. You should not be thinking female space marines might exist or should.

@Phoebus : Why can't you
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post #49 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 07:30 AM
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Bottom line, you're simply citing things that minors are exposed to - not what is designed for them. They are, at best, inaccurate analogies.
Tell that to the parents who buy them for their kids, I mean seriously they're flooding XBL I have yet to play a match with no squeaky voices. Take a good look at the fan base, most cod players want change however they're drowned out by the kids who can't go two minutes without killing something.

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In only the most generic sense possible. In the most simplistic, 'I am a good soldier that is fighting against bad guys, in a war where the lines between "good" and "bad" are blurred.' This is not a "black and white" case at all
Really? I mean really? Cod is one step away from saying, yeah all military personally are useless fucks aside from your squad, there games themselves contain enough guys saying how they want to be like you.
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post #50 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by GabrialSagan View Post
Chapter Master Thomas Curry.

Non-sequitur:

Do you prefer your Imperium as a monotheistic theocracy where the Emperor is the only (impotent) god or your Imperium as a polytheistic police-state where the Emperor is one god among many?
I like the monotheistic stalinist esque police state, I think it adds to the tragedy that is the Imperium of man, I think if you hsve lots of religions it would smack too much of personal freedom which I do not think would gel with the grim dark of 40k. As for female space marines, can us boys for once not just keep something for ourselves, is it too much to ask?!

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