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post #31 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 12:02 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Oldman78 View Post
What about the bi sexual trans gender transvestite marines on pg 153 of Rogue Trader!

Chapter Master Thomas Curry.

Non-sequitur:

Do you prefer your Imperium as a monotheistic theocracy where the Emperor is the only (impotent) god or your Imperium as a polytheistic police-state where the Emperor is one god among many?
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post #32 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 12:35 AM
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Who really likes the uber-serious tone 40k has taken?
I do

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Do you prefer your Imperium as a monotheistic theocracy where the Emperor is the only (impotent) god or your Imperium as a polytheistic police-state where the Emperor is one god among many?
Monotheistic

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post #33 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 12:54 AM
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What Phoebus said, and more bluntly what darkreever said too. It's strange that one minute you should claim 40k is trying to appeal more to the younger and/or childlike audiences, but then complain about the serious and dark tone it has taken on instead of the more gimmick filled days. And just as Phoebus said, that is a wildly sweeping generalisation to say the novels are all trying to appeal to the teenage market, have you even read Eisenhorn, the Night Lords trilogy, Heresy novels like Fulgrim, The First Heretic, Prospero Burns and many others, all of which are intensely adult themed and are on a literacy level that would frankly be lost on most teenagers and I'd wager quite a few young adults.

Your argument for female marines is also beyond retarded. You can't give a page as proof and fact when it contains no such thing and then fall back on the worst and weakest argument in the world of 'if it doesn't say they don't exist...then they do', have you heard of Russell's Teapot, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Flying Spaghetti Monster? It's an argument from ignorance, and is about as credible as OJ Simpson.
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post #34 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 01:10 AM
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What Phoebus said, and more bluntly what darkreever said too. It's strange that one minute you should claim 40k is trying to appeal more to the younger and/or childlike audiences, but then complain about the serious and dark tone it has taken on instead of the more gimmick filled days. And just as Phoebus said, that is a wildly sweeping generalisation to say the novels are all trying to appeal to the teenage market, have you even read Eisenhorn, the Night Lords trilogy, Heresy novels like Fulgrim, The First Heretic, Prospero Burns and many others, all of which are intensely adult themed and are on a literacy level that would frankly be lost on most teenagers and I'd wager quite a few young adults.
I dunno really how far I'd go praising the literary level of the Black Library novels. They're competently written, but they're just pulp fiction. The best of them are "decent", and a few border on downright silly. In the end, no matter how "adult" you try to theme it, 40K is still a cartoon universe full of pop-culture tropes that try to kill one another.

The reality is that teenagers and young adults love that kinda stuff. Just like a movie being rated R doesn't stop kids from wanting to see them, neither does the subject matter being "adult" in nature stop kids from reading these books. There's a very good reason why sexual themes are more or less forbidden, because Games Workshop knows its audience. And they don't want part of that audience getting caught with something their parents might take away. Especially since parents may be funding their purchases in whole or in part.

Teenagers aren't as dumb as you're making them out to be. Especially the demographic that plays 40K. And they'll eat up mass produced pulp action novels.

If Marneus Calgar is supposed to be "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible, but the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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post #35 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 02:03 AM
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That's a sweeping and inaccurate generalization. To begin with, it's ridiculous to argue that even the baseline of 40k is mean to appeal to pre-teens. Not beyond the actual game, that is. Evil gods, sadistic torturers, genocide, chainsaw swords, racism, and fascism are not themes meant to appeal to young kids. You might convince me that certain stories (some of the Ventris material, for instance) could fall under the PG-13 label, but you can't tell me that the marquee stories do that. It would take a very creative perspective to argue that Gaunt's Ghosts, the Horus Heresy, the Night Lords trilogy, etc., are aimed at young teens or pre-teens.

Incidentally, what do you mean by COD? Call of Duty? I can't begin to imagine how Call of Duty and the Ultramarines intersect, except for the most commonly basic themes.


That's hypothetical, though. In execution, only the feral orks are really treated seriously. And even then, the same silly terminology pervades.

Speaking for myself, I can't begin to tell you how much it ruins my suspension of disbelief when high-ranking Imperial officers toss around terms like "Waaagh", "Nob", "Boss", "Telyporta", etc. I'm not saying those concepts aren't fun in their own right, but they're just jarringly dissimilar when put next to virtually anything else that's 40k.
So in other words you have no clue what games kids play today?

Let me enlighten you.

Saints row Has BDSM and being able to hit people with dildo's
COD Has levels where you massacre civilians. I can assure you few people skipped it.
Halo Entire game is based around the concept of genocide.
GTA Has a level dedicated to torturing an innocent man and shows everything.

If you can't see how your cod character is similar to wards ultramarines I really suggest you play a few cod games, it's in black and white.
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post #36 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 02:41 AM
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I dunno really how far I'd go praising the literary level of the Black Library novels. They're competently written, but they're just pulp fiction. The best of them are "decent", and a few border on downright silly. In the end, no matter how "adult" you try to theme it, 40K is still a cartoon universe full of pop-culture tropes that try to kill one another.
The same could be said not just of the science fiction and fantasy genres, but of fictional literature, period.

Just because something starts off at a certain level (and I assure you, the critical and popular opinions of fantasy and science fiction did not equate the genres as a whole to Tolkien, Asimov, or Heinlein) doesn't mean that it can't evolve or get better.

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So in other words you have no clue what games kids play today?

Let me enlighten you.
Yes, please do.

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Saints row Has BDSM and being able to hit people with dildo's
COD Has levels where you massacre civilians. I can assure you few people skipped it.
Halo Entire game is based around the concept of genocide.
GTA Has a level dedicated to torturing an innocent man and shows everything.
... And you just proceeded to list a number of video games that, in the US at least, earned "Mature, 17+" ratings from the ESRB for, among other things, "Blood and Gore, Drug Reference, Intense Violence, Strong Language".

What does the ESRB have to say about these games?

Quote:
"Games with this rating contain content which the board believes is suitable for those aged 17 or up;"
The ESRB ratings are, of course, not legally binding, but it says a lot that a majority of of American retailers self-regulate sales and are ostensibly supposed to restrict sales of Mature-rated games to minors,

Bottom line, you're simply citing things that minors are exposed to - not what is designed for them. They are, at best, inaccurate analogies.

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If you can't see how your cod character is similar to wards ultramarines I really suggest you play a few cod games, it's in black and white.
In only the most generic sense possible. In the most simplistic, 'I am a good soldier that is fighting against bad guys, in a war where the lines between "good" and "bad" are blurred.' This is not a "black and white" case at all.
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post #37 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 03:24 AM
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I do


Monotheistic
+1 to both of those. The very basis of why I enjoy this lore in fact.


@Veteran Sergeant: The user in question has tried multiple times to prove that SM's can be female and every time has failed to convince anybody. The last time she/he tried it was claiming that the 6th edition rule book had retconned the lore to allow female SM's. The way that it generally progresses is this:

1 - GS claims that it's been retconned or always has been so with a vague "reference" which she/he claims is concrete proof. - tick -

2 - GS provides said "reference" and it turns out to be highly debatable and/or highly circumstantial and generally involves an absence of an explicit statement that would contravene her/his point. She/he claims this is concrete fact that their can be female SM's - her/his train of logic says that "because it doesn't implicitly state that it cannot be done it must therefore be possible despite all the other evidence to the contrary". In other words as AOB says "Russells Teapot". - tick -

3 - GS claims we are all sexist, misogynistic, chauvinistic male pigs and are threatened by the idea of female space marines and strong women. - Don't worry this one will come along soon. -

4 - GS either gets smacked by the mods or leaves in a huff - only a matter of time -

Last edited by Jacobite; 01-17-14 at 03:31 AM.
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post #38 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 04:51 AM
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Whoa, whoa, whoa.

GW definitely tried to make the game more kid friendly, I presume as a sales tactic. However, it isn't more kid friendly right now.

The release of 3rd edition did an awful lot to strip out the more explicit parts of the game lore, and to drastically simplify the rule set.

2nd edition was fairly solid fluff wise. It was still adult without being quite as inconsistent as Rogue Trader. The rules were also more consistent, but still included a massive amount of special rules (a chief target of GW's editors).

Over the ensuing editions, GW has slowly and consistently re-introduced more adult themes and game content, as well as raising the threshold for special rules. Compare the army books from 2nd edition, 3rd edition, and 6th edition and you will see that 2nd and 6th have more in common in many ways than 6th and 3rd.

(I find it an interesting aside that fantasy battle was never as restricted with childish constraints as 40k.)

While I don't particularly like a lot of the black library stuff, it has definitely been a good way for GW to develop a lot of the more mature themes they eschewed, while simultaneously keeping them out of the main books. In essence, allowing GW to prevent the content from being exposed to the basic mainstream audience, while allowing those who were interested to buy it.

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post #39 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
The same could be said not just of the science fiction and fantasy genres, but of fictional literature, period.

Just because something starts off at a certain level (and I assure you, the critical and popular opinions of fantasy and science fiction did not equate the genres as a whole to Tolkien, Asimov, or Heinlein) doesn't mean that it can't evolve or get better.
Well, I'll wait, lol.

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3 - GS claims we are all sexist, misogynistic, chauvinistic male pigs and are threatened by the idea of female space marines and strong women. - Don't worry this one will come along soon.
That sounds like the fun part. Should I not have stopped?

If Marneus Calgar is supposed to be "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible, but the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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post #40 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-14, 05:37 AM
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VS go read Pariah/P.Burns then revist this thread and feel free to hit the edit button on your post/
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