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post #111 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-21-14, 12:15 PM
Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
 
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Originally Posted by emporershand89 View Post
YIKES!!! I can understand the decision especially considering what a pain Huron was being. Still it seems excessive considering they have had so many better "examples" to use that would have had a much larger impact than the few worlds of the Badab War. I'm curious if there was a personal reason behind it, but still it i quite a ruthless move. Thnxs for the info
Mother of god in a cheese cutter bouncing up and down on a bungee cord while belting out "Burn It Down" in f flat, EH, if you aren't even able to figure out what battles were involved in the Badab War and what weren't, even with the help of the internet, then I'm really at a loss as to what the point of responding to you is. Do yourself a favor and read these two links, taking careful note of the dates:

The Great Malagantine Purge: happening between 770-791.M38: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/G...agantine_Purge

The Badab War: happening between 901.M41 and 913.M41: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Badab_War

There is over a 3 thousand year difference between the two. For the third time, are you aware of how the concept of time works? Huron wasn't even born when the Purge was happening, and before you say that's debatable it's not. Dante is the oldest Space Marine not in a Dreadnaught (Bjorn) and he is about 1300 years old (possibly older). And no I don't care if you've just worked 40 hours straight and have about 5 minutes before you have to do another 40 hours before you roll that old chestnut out again.

As for the rest of your post and responding to @Phoebus as well. I think the best way I can sum it up is: A individual story can be serious within a non realistic or comedic setting. Just because something or someone takes it's self seriously does not necessarily mean that it's surroundings, or the conventions that govern it's surroundings, are realistic or serious. You watch any sitcom and you'll see example after example of this.

I completely agree with you Phoebus when you say things like: Beyond that, think of the many beloved science fiction settings that have challenged the suspension of disbelief with concepts that were obviously informed by the rule of cool as opposed to realism and the question to ponder is whether the setting presents plausible reasons for certain concepts I am more than happy to suspend my disbelief for certain elements of 40k, however as soon as I start to suspend my disbelief the setting doesn't become "realistic". I'm more than happy to do that though, 40k is escapism.

EH, you've brought up the 40k version of Flashman as an example of "realism"and you've gone in the space of two posts from saying 40k is:

"Realistic as it can get while creating an decent story about a grim future for the Warrior, History enthusiast, and Geek/Nerd gamers. There is no place for kids in 40k....." to saying "Warhammer 40k was not marketed to be the "Ultimate War Simulator."and quoting other people saying but it doesn't really matter if it's all that realistic, it makes for some nice cinematic imagery"

Sounds like in about 3 posts you'll have changed your mind again. 40k artwork is "realistically gruesome artwork" is it? I would ask some of the members of the forum who have served in war zones if the artwork would be described as a realistic depiction of the conditions present in a war zone, the mud, blood and the effect weapon systems have on human bodies however that would be an entirely inappropriate question to ask and one that I'm not willing to do. 40k art may be grim, it may be dark but it's not realistic, just in the same way 99% of movie violence is not realistic.

40k is escapism and entertainment and you know what... there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I enjoy that about it. If I want sci-fi that makes me ponder my own existance I'll read Peter F Hamilton. If I want some good page turning escapism I'll read Abnett.

So in your own words (correcting your spelling mistakes though) "Really man I'm putting a grenade down your hatch and slamming it shut on you." well at least in my world anyway. *finds ignore button, presses it, walks off whistling Burn It Down.*


Last edited by Jacobite; 01-21-14 at 10:58 PM.
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post #112 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-21-14, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
Beyond that, think of the many beloved science fiction settings that have challenged the suspension of disbelief with concepts that were obviously informed by the "rule of cool" as opposed to realism: Flash Gordon, Star Wars, Star Trek, Dune, etc.
Okay, so then I'm 100% correct about the setting eschewing any semblance of realism.

You can't have it both ways. It's either realistic, or it's rule of cool. I wasn't judging it as being bad because it's a cartoon. It's just that it's a cartoon.
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I suspect authors like Abnett would sincerely disagree with you in regards to their approach to their work.
Abnett, the heavy idea-borrower who churns out an average of four full-length novels a year(which is probably why almost all of them have rushed and sudden endings) across multiple licenses? He's good at colorful prose and setting descriptions. Other than that, his work is best described as that of an adequate author. Heck, if anything, he's the proof to what I'm saying, lol.

Somebody mentioned Prospero Burns recently. Ahh yes, the story about Kasper Hawser who goes by the name Ahmad ibn Rustah even though he's really more like Ahmad ibn Fadlan and the entire novel is more or less a 40Kization of his travels amongst a strange Norse culture originally fictionalized in Crichton's Eaters of the Dead, as well as a host of other fairly generic fictional storylines about a stranger in a strange land (who eventually becomes a warrior in his own right. Oh lord if he'd only taken that one step further and had the 13th Grand Company, making Hawser the... 13th Warrior). The story where the Space Wolves apparently mid-Crusade just hang out on Fenris a lot, and get involved in disjointed battles against giant robots. Space Wolves who, despite being an advanced spacefaring culture don't have the capability or interest to record their own histories because, ya know, fuck it, they're just a thinly veiled 10th century viking trope anyway and otherwise there'd be no premise for the novel if they didn't beat that horse absolutely to death and make them need a skald to tell their stories. I mean, I get that some of you aren't very well read in both fiction and/or history, so you don't notice that these novels are often just rehashing old/classic tales or archetypal storylines and 40Kizing them with as many plot devices as possible. And the pretty language is fairly distracting if all you wanted was some extravagant battlescapes and to see glimpses of Bjorn the Fell Handed and Leman Russ. But come on, can you guys stop trying to convince me that this stuff is some kind of masterpiece fiction? It's mass-produced license pulp. Several of these authors are fairly talented when it comes to prose, and the books are fairly entertaining and easy to read, but they're just churning out generic stuff that is "decent" at best. Abnett didn't even try to mask the fact that he was just mashing a bunch of other material in Prospero Burns, probably because he knew most of you wouldn't even notice so long as there was some easily consumed page-turning action, snappy dialog, and characters you recognized. And he was right. It was the first Heresy Novel to hit the NYT bestsellers list simple because it was about Space Wolves, lol.

So yeah, Abnett's work is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. This is the guy who basically ported a World War Two fighter squadron serial into 40K complete with a pilot who meets and falls in love with a local woman at a diner in his off time.

If Marneus Calgar is supposed to be "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible, but the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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post #113 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-21-14, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Malus Darkblade View Post
And yet here you are VS on a forum about the lore no less.

The examples you gave, with the exception of the Orks, are not accurate whatsoever.
They're not?

Quote:
First, there are no wolf-riding Space Vikings anymore. Abnett and other authors have reinvented them.
Hi there, Codex Space Wolves would like to have a word with you.

Quote:
Titans are expensive and they are very limited. So it's not hard to see why melee weapons/pistols are a viable alternative when the situation calls for it.
F35's are expensive and they are very limited. So it's not hard to see why melee weapons/pistols are a viable alternative when the situation calls for it. That's it applied to modern day kit. Pistols and "Combat Knives" (can be found in the section labled "string cutters/can openers") are personal defence weapons used when you don't actually have a rifle to hand.

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Even today, top martial artists say they prefer fighting someone with a gun vs a blade.
Even today, top soldiers prefer fighting someone with a blade versus a gun.

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In a war, bullets run out. Blades do not. Just be thankful we haven't seen a war where its come down to using blades as opposed to bullets which would allow us to draw reference from.
Eh. Bayonet charges have been a thing in Ghanners.

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The Dark Elves focus on pleasure. Revealing their bodies is a form of said pleasure. They combine that with their love for enslaving and raiding. While this does appeal to certain male audiences, it still fits lore-wise and I don't see how its childish.'
"ooh titties" is not childish? They're fucking ace, I'll give them that, but seriously? "How do we appeal to 13 year old boys? I know, Boobs!" Chainmail bikini's do not provide any pleasure whatsoever. You're hit with a rapid firing rocket launcher. You're disintegrated. And no, don't use that "increased mobility" bullshit, because there's numerous occasions of other Eldar in armour being able to dodge bullets.

Quote:
I would appreciate a list of these two-dimensional villains you're talking about. Top of my head, is Sara Cawkell's portrayal of Huron. And remember that some authors can reinvent previously established characters and completely revamp them.
Any of the CSM Codex.
Any of the Daemon Codex.
Tyranids.
Necrons.
Orks.
Not saying the "goodies" are any better. They exist because "ooh here's a new special rule".

Even in 40K, the big bads don't get much showtime (except Lucious Lucius, but Graham Macneil enjoys getting rimjobs off him, so puts him in whenever he can to provide some fake gravitas by including 40K creations); the Primarchs are in fact some of the few multi-faceted characters presented, but some of them are just retarded; Fulgrim, Perturabo, the Lion, Ferrus Manus, Magnus...

@Jacob : A commissar is shouting orders from atop a tank and wielding his sword for emphasis/authority. Where is the unrealistic part?[/QUOTE]
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It's not a black and white question really, there are different shades of anal probing,
a rectum spectrum, if you will
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post #114 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-21-14, 01:23 PM
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Jacobite,

My objection to the setting being described as cartoony or comical. Of course there are elements of it that meet that criteria: I myself am talking about how I wish the Orks wouldn't be thus in another thread. I just don't think that the setting as a whole is that way.

As far as realism, though? That's not something I'm trying to argue. I'm simply saying that the setting presents certain concepts in a way that - for the most part, with the obvious caveat I provided above - allows for the reader to switch their suspension of disbelief on. I daresay that most science fiction aren't realistic by default. Sure, some are more realistic than others (Heinlein's earth government, since Starship Troopers was brought up earlier), and a few are set soon enough in the future that we don't second guess many of their concepts (Bladerunner comes to mind). I think it's fair to say, though, that a majority of the genre rely heavily on made-up technology and fanciful imaginings of societies that might somehow come to be in the far future. That goes doubly so for those genres that also heavily borrow from fantasy - such as Star Wars, for instance.

There is quite a leap to be made between "not realistic", which is a label that much of the genre is saddled with, and "goofy", "silly", and "utterly ridiculous", which is Veteran Sergeant's take on the setting.

Speaking of which, come on Veteran Sergeant, you have got to be more fair with your comparisons. Crichton didn't make up Ahmad ibn Fadlan. More importantly, though, Hawser doesn't fill the same role as the Arab. Or did I miss something? Did the latter also serve as an unwitting fifth columnist that the Wendol intended to exploit against the Bulliwyf's band of Norsemen?

You then go on to offer a hash of opinion - to which you're obviously entitled - as to the quality of said novel, before making a colossal assumption regarding the reading habits of those who disagree with your premise. Do we really want to get into a dick-waving context about who's better-read, or are you man enough to accept that maybe - just maybe - a lot of the stuff you're throwing out there just comes down to taste, and isn't an objective appraisal of the setting as a whole?

Fun fact: The First Heretic hit the New York Times Bestseller list before Prospero Burns. I suppose it, too, simply borrowed on earlier works and relied on its intended audience's poor readership for success?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
Hi there, Codex Space Wolves would like to have a word with you.
Every reader is entitled to agree or disagree as to whether Abnett achieved his aim of making the Space Wolves more interesting. That having been said, Codex: Space Wolves was released in October of 2009. Prospero Burns was intended to be released at least six months after that. I sincerely doubt that Abnett will ever get a chance to affect the writing of a Codex being written concurrently with one of his novels, let alone one that had probably been in development before he even got started with his story.

Obviously I'm not privy to the working relationship (or lack thereof) between Black Library novelists and Games Workshop Codex writers... but given the fact that the last Codex: Space Marines still assumes the Legions are as they were circa decade-old Index Astartes articles... I'm going to assume Abnett was never going to affect the development of crap like "Thunderwolf Cavalry".

Quote:
F35's are expensive and they are very limited. So it's not hard to see why melee weapons/pistols are a viable alternative when the situation calls for it. That's it applied to modern day kit. Pistols and "Combat Knives" (can be found in the section labled "string cutters/can openers") are personal defence weapons used when you don't actually have a rifle to hand.
We also don't have superhuman soldiers in powered armour that can shrug off small arms, who are able to deploy within seconds (or minutes) in the heart of strategic targets. Melee combat becomes somewhat more viable in such situations. I know that, if I could run as fast as a cheetah and could pulp bones beneath armour with my armored hands or shred through tanks with certain melee weapons, I'd be less worried about taking cover and engaging with three-round bursts.

Quote:
"ooh titties" is not childish? They're fucking ace, I'll give them that, but seriously? "How do we appeal to 13 year old boys? I know, Boobs!" Chainmail bikini's do not provide any pleasure whatsoever. You're hit with a rapid firing rocket launcher. You're disintegrated. And no, don't use that "increased mobility" bullshit, because there's numerous occasions of other Eldar in armour being able to dodge bullets.
Alright, so you crossed Wych Cults off the list. What about the rest of the Dark Eldar?

Besides that, though, two things:

1. Yeah, obviously it's best when cheap attempts at sexuality aren't used as a marketing device.
2. But seriously, if those are the criteria by which we're going to judge Warhammer 40k, I hope we're all incredibly selective with our choice of fiction/science fiction/fantasy, and are simply slumming in these forums for laughs.

Quote:
Any of the CSM Codex.
Wait, by what criteria are we judging them? By the gaming background material, or by the novels they're appearing in? This is an important qualifier for me because I don't play the game. I read the novels and I've played the computer games. Of course I read the Codices and background material as well, but I take into consideration the fact that there are novelists, there are aspiring novelists, and there are people who simply like writing background material for gaming hobbies.

As such, there are two sides to Abaddon the Despoiler. He has been a two-dimensional, megalomaniacal tyrant in gaming background material... and, as a secondary character in three different novels, his motivations have largely been kept away from the reader. But that's not to say that The Talon of Horus won't make him a captivating character. Again, opinions will vary, but I don't think you can read Dembski-Bowden's arguments on the character and the Black Legion and plausibly argue that he's just cashing in a check and telegraphing a bunch of tropes.

Moving on down the list, I think Lucius has potential for a secondary character. It remains to be seen how well he will be used.

Typhus is another question mark. If he's two-dimensional, it's because he has largely been a set of stats thus far. In the two stories in which he's been part of the supporting cast, we've never been given insight as to what drives him.

Ahriman is just starting to become accessible. Atlas Infernal touched on his goals a bit, and a trilogy of novels purports to tell his tale. I'm not sure if you've read any of them or not (I haven't, yet).

Kharn certainly seems to be getting away from a guy who keeps yelling "KILL MAIM BURN".

I agree that Fabius Bile is telegraphed. I've yet to see anything - even from the Horus Heresy novels - that gives him any life beyond "typically brilliant, yet cruel and mad scientist".

Quote:
Any of the Daemon Codex.
Never read it. I imagine the biggest challenge authors face when writing these into novels is the classification system. It makes matters easier for a game, I'm sure, but what a hurdle for someone more worried about a fulfilling story?

Quote:
Tyranids.
I'm up in the air about the Tyranids insofar as how they've been used in novels. I was more a fan of the Genestealers.

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Necrons.
I think these are still a work in progress.

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Orks.
Agreed wholeheartedly.

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... the Primarchs are in fact some of the few multi-faceted characters presented, but some of them are just retarded; Fulgrim, Perturabo, the Lion, Ferrus Manus, Magnus...
I thought Fulgrim's portrayal was amateurish, and depended on stereotypes more than anything else. Ferrus Manus is just aggravating to me - he's angry for the sake of being angry. I didn't think anything was wrong with the Lion or Magnus. I agree that Perturabo vacillated to easily from reasonable and idealistic to brutal and callous in Angel Exterminatus. But what can you say? McNeil's work vacillates so easily from promising to disappointing.

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There's a reason the CROWS system and the radio was invented.
That's not even a licensed piece of artwork...

Last edited by Phoebus; 01-21-14 at 02:01 PM.
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post #115 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-21-14, 02:03 PM
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Wait... isn't 1st Edition the era of characters like Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau?

Yeah, I think I will stick with modern 40k, thank you.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.
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