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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 03:30 AM Thread Starter
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Default Does Chaos lead to power?

I am mostly talking about the Daemon Primarchs, but it can be asked about any chaos follower. I am of the opinion that chaos does not add to an individuals power, it just modifies what is already there. I look at it more like a drug. I don't think Angron gained anything when he 'ascended', he just started taking PCP. He did become stronger and more rabid by it, but what he gained in ferocity he lost in stability (what little he had left).

I don't think that Lorgar gained any power when he first turned. He was just able to use his existing latent powers better.

Argel Tal was more powerful, but that wasn't all him. A large amount of 'his' power came from Raum.


Do you think that Chaos gives any actual power to it's servants? To me it is like a drug and really adds nothing. If I got a head full of coke I might work for 3 days straight, feel great doing it... even get a promotion, but it hasn't 'given' me anything. What I gained in work and promotion it has taken away from me in health (among other things). With Chaos I think is very similar, except chaos takes more.
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Zooey72 View Post
I am of the opinion that chaos does not add to an individuals power, it just modifies what is already there.
It depends on what you mean by 'power'. In my opinion Chaos makes an individual far more powerful because it increases their raw output. Things like strength, speed and endurance all tend to be helped by Chaos. What you seem to be getting at is that Chaos also decreases a persons 'control' (for lack of a better word). Chaos typically reduces 'sanity' and in the in the specific case of Daemon-Princes reduces their stability in the material realm. It also typically reduces their ability to act against their Gods will. This all equates to control, the individual ultimately has less ability to direct their power where they want it. But I wouldn't argue that that equates to a loss of power. Indeed I'd say that's the whole gamble of Chaos, it gives you great power but reduces your ability to control that power. Ultimately it is debatable whether you come of better in the long term, but you do come of more powerful.

"Look into my eyes, and see your death."
"Let them hate, so long as they fear."
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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 07:13 AM
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Well, Horus got supped up on some crazy power. He apparently took down Sangy (admittedly who was injured and weakened from months of siege) like a chump, apparently.

Then there's Luther who managed, despite being only partially converted into a post-human, a fair fight to the Lion. And we know the Lion is very, very good at fighting. If Guilliman's praise is anything to go by in The Unremembered Empire.

Then of course poor Temba. He didn't quite manage to hold his own again Horus, but he definitely gave Horus some fight. Which is more than an most Astartes could ever hope to do, much less a regular human.
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
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Well, Horus got supped up on some crazy power. He apparently took down Sangy (admittedly who was injured and weakened from months of siege) like a chump, apparently.

Then there's Luther who managed, despite being only partially converted into a post-human, a fair fight to the Lion. And we know the Lion is very, very good at fighting. If Guilliman's praise is anything to go by in The Unremembered Empire.

Then of course poor Temba. He didn't quite manage to hold his own again Horus, but he definitely gave Horus some fight. Which is more than an most Astartes could ever hope to do, much less a regular human.
Good points and examples as far as raw power goes. A human vs. an Astartes is a joke. A human vs. a Primarch is insane. I would point out with Temba though that it was the sword that beat Horus, not the person. Luther on the other hand only had (to the best of our knowledge) the power given to him by Chaos.

If you also think about it, Horus vs. The Emp. should be no contest. Horus may be tough, but the Emp. was close to all powerful.
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 08:03 PM
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A human vs. a Primarch is insane. I would point out with Temba though that it was the sword that beat Horus, not the person.
We don't know this as a fact. We only have a hunch from Horus that believes the sword, not Temba, was the source of Horus's difficulty.

Still, Temba was able to break the neck of a Space Marine Captain (Moy's).
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Zooey72 View Post
Do you think that Chaos gives any actual power to it's servants? To me it is like a drug and really adds nothing. If I got a head full of coke I might work for 3 days straight, feel great doing it... even get a promotion, but it hasn't 'given' me anything. What I gained in work and promotion it has taken away from me in health (among other things). With Chaos I think is very similar, except chaos takes more.
I think that it's fair to say that the form the boons take tend to be extensions of your pre-existing traits- the most dominant ones, those that drove you to Chaos in the first place, at the cost of the rest of your being. A warrior that worships Khorne, for instance, will see his battle-lust and bloodthirstiness increase, while his mercy and compassion disappear. The powers of Chaos, major and minor, are created and sustained by strong emotion. Depending on which emotion or trait in yourself you feed, the more you align with that particular power. It's not that Chaos doesn't add anything that wasn't already there, but augments it and brings it to the forefront of your identity in a way that wouldn't be possible otherwise. The power Chaos grants is as much a test as it is a boon. Your mutations might be handy, but they could overwhelm you and turn you into spawn. Your sorcerous powers could go out of control; your summoned daemons could turn against you; your daemon weapon could possess you; your followers might depose you. Everything your patron grants carries with it the possibility of it backfiring on you. If you survive all that (i.e. really get in-touch with the full bore of that one magnified trait at the cost of everything else) you get daemonhood and become even more of an extension of your patron's will.
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-12-14, 06:16 PM
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I'd say chaos kind of switches or rather overwrites parts of the champion.
The more powerful the champion becomes, the more his mind thinks like that
of his patron god as he is becoming more daemonic and less solid in nature.
That's why the cruel joke is that when you've finally become a daemon prince...
how much of you is left? You've pretty much sold yourself completely in order
to be granted power and you may not even realize just how much you aren't you
any longer. You're merely an extension of the god that thinks it has free will.
You're a puppet who thinks it's you pulling your own strings.

And it's assumed that this is why Abaddon has turned down repeated offers of
princedom...he wants to keep his head in the game, as the primarchs don't really
do much now for some reason, mainly sit on their daemon worlds, with the exception
of Angron on Armageddon and possibly that Mortarion Draigo debacle? Maybe they
occasionally bother then? Whatever.

Last edited by vipertaja; 01-12-14 at 06:19 PM.
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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-16-14, 05:58 AM
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Yes, the gods of chaos can make their followers more powerful...if they choose. They can also turn their followers into potatoes.
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 01-25-14, 02:04 PM
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With great power comes great insanity.

My story about the commissars Zachary Carrus and Michelle Ionza and their life and crimes https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=123690
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