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post #81 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 02:33 AM
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If he was ordered to Kill Guilliman, he'd do it in whatever way was necessary to achieve the other secondary objectives; such as legion crippling, stranding war vessels, redirecting/removing supply lines. Encourage the belief that another legion had a hand in the murder by putting it on them; hell possibly even colluding with those who've fought alongside him and trust them a lot; Sons of Horus, say, who've campaigned, have them provide the killing blow, or at least be present at the scene of Guillimans death.

The easiest way would probably just by disabling the drives of Guilliman's fleet, crippling them all, destroying all the escape hatches, and then forcing Guilliman into a star. Or having a suicide squad destroy the Gellar field while within the Warp.



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post #82 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 02:46 AM
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Remember that duel between lucius and loken? Lucius lost because loken sucker punched him.
Comparing legion against legion combat to a one-on-one duel that Lucius expected to go purely down to swordplay is like comparing apples and oranges. And if you insist on using it as an argument, then I can point out that the fact that Loken did whatever it took to win after realising he couldn't beat Lucius straight up, adapting and figuring out an alternative strategy and then describing it as the "Luna Wolf way", then it disproves your other point where you implied that the Luna Wolves are one trick ponies.

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Clearly they failed, there's tons of times where the ultramarines screwed up on blatantly obvious things because of their arrogance.
Care to provide references to these "tons" of times where they screwed "blatantly obvious things" up due to "arrogance"? They got caught off guard because they were blindsided by an enemy they never expected to have to face.

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It would seem most planets have some sort of fortress, there's nothing saying a legion would realize having a single fortress is a bad idea, honsou realized this, I don't believe he was the first iron warrior to think this.
How does this in any way address the point MEQinc raised with regards to the skills of the Imperial Fists?

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Aside from isstivan most of his tactics are gambles. Or are done because someone insults him.
So Horus became regarded as one if not the greatest tactician among the primarchs, led the most successful legion and was named Warmaster through roughly 2 centuries of gambling and being baited into action by insults? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound right now?

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The more complicated the part the worse things get.
Can you explain how a complicated plan automatically makes "things" (whatever they are) worse?

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True, but they aren't reigned in. They have no control of themselves.
Actually, to do what the Night Lords did requires a lot of precision and control. It isn't a question of lack of control. It's a situation of them being a bunch of twisted bastards who enjoyed doing what they were doing.

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The world eaters are described of attacking anyone except for other world eaters when under the nails influence.
Yet we have a number of examples of them and some of their battles (including an entire novel), where they don't simply attack every non-World Eater while under the influence of the nails.

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"Dishonorable tactics" Or what the wolves do in prosporo seems to work.
Actually, one very well placed bolter round can do the job. No "dishonorable tactics" needed. And the effectiveness of their tactics on Prospero is questionable, seeing as they didn't actually manage to completely wipe out the Thousand Sons or Magnus.

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Last edited by Chompy Bits; 01-09-14 at 02:50 AM.
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post #83 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 06:29 AM
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The wolves would come to heel after the fighting had stopped.
Everyone 'came to heel' after the fighting stopped. What varied was when they considered the fighting to have stopped. Looking at it this way we can see that the Wolves are actually one of the more reluctant Legions, accepting nothing less than complete destruction.

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I think the Ultra's, DA and IF were too honourable to fight other legions at first until they realised it was absolutely nescessary.
So the fact that the Wolves are overly eager to attack their fellow Astartes is a point in their favour? Whilst it is simultaneously being held against the World Eaters?

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The Iron Warriors couldn't have done it as they were split round the galaxy, guarding/garrisoning....setting up for the heresy.
Logically, if the Emperor had intended for them to be the Executioners he wouldn't have had them on garrison duty.

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Small legion, so they were more expendable - the wolves losing wouldn't be the same as Rogal Dorn or Roboute's legions losing.
If the Wolves are the only Legion capable of being the Executioners than they are by definition not expendable. Indeed this raises the question of why they were deployed to front-line duty in the first place. Losses there would potentially destroy their ability to preform their intended function.

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History contradicts that assertion many times over. Time and again, we've seen how forces that enjoyed psychological advantages were able to trump enemies with comparable numbers and equipment.
Right. Obviously. Sorry, I wasn't making myself clear. Any battle between two Space Marine Legions is not going to be one between Spartans and 'lesser' Greeks, it's going to be fought between two bands of Spartans. Space Marines are all trained and motivated to such a massive level that there simply isn't room for there to be much difference between Legions. It would be very, very difficult (if not impossible) to motivate one Legion above the others but it is very, very easy to equip them to fight other Legions.

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The Space Wolves certainly express such a mentality and motivation. You can call it self-delusion or genuine confidence, but they are not shy about expressing what they feel their worth and ability is.
Thanks, I will call it self-delusion.

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The Space Wolves may very well have taken horrendous losses in purging one or both of the Missing Legions - perhaps that's why they are fewer in number than they should be. Victory in just the first of those campaigns would have given them invaluable experience and confidence for any subsequent such action.
Assuming of course that the Wolves actually played any part in the separate tragedies those Legions befell. Seperate tragedies that clearly did not prepare a single other Legion for the concept of inter-Astartes violence.

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The Wolves didn't hesitate where the Thousand Sons did (and where most other legions probably would have hesitated as well).
I'd question whether the other Legions would've hesitated. We're shown repeatedly that the Thousands Sons are both one of the least likely to engage in violence and one of the most introspective of all the Legions. Those two traits make them likely to hesitate.

On the other hand we have accounts of Alpha Legion, Night Lord and World Eater warriors actually looking forward to and enjoying fighting other Astartes. Would they hesitate? Would the unflinchingly obedient Imperial Fists, or just generally unflinching Death Guard?

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Remember that duel between lucius and loken? Lucius lost because loken sucker punched him.
Lucius was arrogant and Loken cheated. Hardly an exemplar of how the Emperor's Children fight. Look elsewhere in that book and you'll see descriptions of the sort of perfection I'm talking about. Perfectly intersecting fields of fire, perfect covering fire and so on.

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Aside from isstivan most of his tactics are gambles.
So aside from one of the most brilliant master-strokes of all time. And of course that ignores a) warfare is always a gamble and b) Horus' tactics are never poor gambles.

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Or are done because someone insults him.
Unlike the perfectly in control Russ you mean.

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True, but they aren't reigned in. They have no control of themselves.
The Night Lords repeatedly demonstrate more control than the Wolves do. It takes far more control to skin a man alive than it does to hack him into pieces.

And until the Emperor betrayed them they were reigned in. Don't believe me? Just look at what they do once they're well and truly off the leash.

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"Dishonorable tactics" Or what the wolves do in prosporo seems to work.
Dishonourable tactics? Like appealing to your enemy to surrender? That's what Russ did on Propero, he begged Magnus to surrender without a fight. Where was the Wolves legendary decisiveness then?

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Flanking angron while he's distracted by Russ isn't a charge now is it?
That's not what the Wolves did. What the Wolves did was charge at the World Eaters, get beaten back and regroup around their Primarch.

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But it wasn't alpharious main tactic, he wanted to prove himself to his brothers, most stuff he did was to prove himself, do you honestly think if he was ordered to kill say gulliman he'd do to in the most efficient way possible? Or would he perform a seriously complex plan that involves impersonating members of the ultramarines and making it obvious what was going to happen before it happened?
I don't see any reason to think Alpharius would make it apparent what was happening. He's not a super-villain. To date most of his plans against the loyal Primarchs haven't even revealed his presence, let alone his goal.

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Last edited by MEQinc; 01-09-14 at 06:33 AM.
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post #84 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 06:46 AM
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Assuming of course that the Wolves actually played any part in the separate tragedies those Legions befell. Seperate tragedies that clearly did not prepare a single other Legion for the concept of inter-Astartes violence.
This is what makes me think the Wolves' had little to do with the 'separate tragedies' of the missing legions.

Throughout the novels and source books relating to the Horus heresy we're told again and again how incomprehensible the idea of Space Marine on Space Marine warfare is. Betrayal was considered an impossibility, beyond the realms of fantasy. It was an unprecedented act.

Surely this belief wouldn't have existed had the Wolves' 'executed' two other legions.

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post #85 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
Everyone 'came to heel' after the fighting stopped. What varied was when they considered the fighting to have stopped. Looking at it this way we can see that the Wolves are actually one of the more reluctant Legions, accepting nothing less than complete destruction.

So the fact that the Wolves are overly eager to attack their fellow Astartes is a point in their favour? Whilst it is simultaneously being held against the World Eaters?
The Wolves weren't overly eager, they just did as they were told. Thats the reason why Angron called them dogs not wolves. They would also see any war they were part of through to the end. Unlike the World Eaters, who when the dust settled would be still wandering round looking for something else to kill.
The World Eaters were eager to spill anyones blood.
Thats why Horus chose them to massacre a civilian population.
When the Wolves attacked prospero, Russ's face during the Magnus showdown was 'wracked with grief'.

In Angron had gone up against Magnus do you think he would he have had a sad face?
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post #86 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 09:10 AM
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In Angron had gone up against Magnus do you think he would he have had a sad face?
Considering the fact that being anywhere near a psyker massively increased his already intense and painful headaches, being near Magnus might have given Angron a "sad face". Or as close to one as he is able to have. Either that, or a nosebleed that would put any perverted male anime character to shame.

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post #87 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 09:35 AM
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Considering the fact that being anywhere near a psyker massively increased his already intense and painful headaches, being near Magnus might have given Angron a "sad face". Or as close to one as he is able to have. Either that, or a nosebleed that would put any perverted male anime character to shame.
Thats not really a sadface though, more a

'omgglarbleihatepsykerstheygivemeaheadacheevencrac kwon'tshiftcomeheresoIcanmurderyoutodeath' face
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post #88 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 04:53 PM
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This is what makes me think the Wolves' had little to do with the 'separate tragedies' of the missing legions.

Throughout the novels and source books relating to the Horus heresy we're told again and again how incomprehensible the idea of Space Marine on Space Marine warfare is. Betrayal was considered an impossibility, beyond the realms of fantasy. It was an unprecedented act.

Surely this belief wouldn't have existed had the Wolves' 'executed' two other legions.
Now that you mention it, I don't remember reading any incredulity on the part of the Wolves that Astares were attacking other Astares... the UM, BA, IF, TS, IH, and RG, sure, but not the Wolves. This could also be one of the many reasons the Wolves were tasked with the observe-and-execute role in the loyalist legions... they were the only legion who had already worked through the brother-on-brother violence on Prospero and with the previous legions.

I also think the Wolves were fit for the executioner role due to the way they interacted with reality. It wasn't a question of morals, philosophy, or even pleasure for them... they followed what they saw as the natural order of the universe to it's utter end and that included striving to overcome any opponent, be it brother, xenos, or heretic.

Many of the previous posts discussed the Wolves working as a team and what sets them apart. One observation I didn't notice is the described instinctual interaction the Wolves have when working as a team, in part through their sense of smell, but it's more than just training and conditioning, its reacting to each other on a subconsious level that enhances the training and conditioning.

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post #89 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 06:06 AM
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The Wolves weren't overly eager, they just did as they were told.
Ah, but they also did things they weren't told to. The Night of the Wolf is an incident of Marine-on-Marine violence preformed entirely because the Wolves wanted to. They were not told to sanction the World Eaters. They were not given permission to attack the World Eaters. But they wanted to. So they did. And they suffered for it. Sounds like over-eagerness to me.

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They would also see any war they were part of through to the end. Unlike the World Eaters, who when the dust settled would be still wandering round looking for something else to kill.
I dunno, seems like killing everyone is an end to any war.

On the other hand there are ways to end wars before that. The Wolves were one of two Legions that were unwilling to recognize those ways.

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In Angron had gone up against Magnus do you think he would he have had a sad face?
So Russ' reluctance to kill a brother (a brother he didn't like) is a reason in favour of him being the executioner?

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Now that you mention it, I don't remember reading any incredulity on the part of the Wolves that Astares were attacking other Astares... the UM, BA, IF, TS, IH, and RG, sure, but not the Wolves.
You missed the point entirely.

Everyone knows what happened to the two lost Legions. If everyone knew that those Legions had betrayed the Emperor and fought other Marines then they would not act as if such things were impossible. They do act as though those things are impossible, therefore they do not know those things have happened before. Therefore the fates of the lost Legions involved neither them turning against the Emperor nor the Wolves fighting them.

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I also think the Wolves were fit for the executioner role due to the way they interacted with reality. It wasn't a question of morals, philosophy, or even pleasure for them... they followed what they saw as the natural order of the universe to it's utter end and that included striving to overcome any opponent, be it brother, xenos, or heretic.
"What they saw as the natural order" is their philosophy. Every Legion did what they believed was right based on their personal interpretation of how the galaxy worked. Every Legion enjoyed doing what they felt was right. The Wolves are no different. Everything they did was something their philosophy and morals told them was right, and something they enjoyed.

One of the things common to the philosophies of all the Legions was a belief in striving to overcome any obstacle (this belief was absolutely central to Imperial Fist and Salamander world-views). That's why every single Legion overcame every opponent placed before them. The Wolves are not special in their ability to do this (and indeed arguably trail behind several other Legions in their ability to do so).

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Many of the previous posts discussed the Wolves working as a team and what sets them apart. One observation I didn't notice is the described instinctual interaction the Wolves have when working as a team, in part through their sense of smell, but it's more than just training and conditioning, its reacting to each other on a subconsious level that enhances the training and conditioning.
You mean like how First Claw behaves in the Night Lords series? Or how every marine ever behaves in their units? Ooh, the Woves can smell better than everyone else. How the fuck does that equate to them working better as a team?

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post #90 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 08:08 AM
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Ah, but they also did things they weren't told to. The Night of the Wolf is an incident of Marine-on-Marine violence preformed entirely because the Wolves wanted to. They were not told to sanction the World Eaters. They were not given permission to attack the World Eaters. But they wanted to. So they did. And they suffered for it. Sounds like over-eagerness to me.



I dunno, seems like killing everyone is an end to any war.

On the other hand there are ways to end wars before that. The Wolves were one of two Legions that were unwilling to recognize those ways.



So Russ' reluctance to kill a brother (a brother he didn't like) is a reason in favour of him being the executioner?
The Night of the Wolf is an attempt by the wolves to end the mindless killing by the World Eaters. They were trying to help the World Eaters realise that their way of fighting was flawed,that the legion was broken and worthless but it wasn't too late to turn things around. Angron was too stupid to listen. Even Lorgar agrees with Russ.
Killing everyone will end a war. But the World Eaters wouldn't stop there. They'd find other people who weren't in the war to kill once their blood was up. Innocent people who had nothing to do with it became fair game.
Russ's reluctance to kill a brother makes him a better choice than Angron. A man who doesn't want to kill and does so because it's his duty will stop when the mission is completed.
Angron being the executioner? that'd be more along the lines of

"Right he's dead. Who's next? You looked at me funny, you DIE!. Right he's dead...You were stood next to him, DIE!...I've got a photo of you stood with him DIE! You once accepted a cake from him, DIE!" etc...

I don't think Russ was the only primarch that could've been the 'executioner' - I think the Lion would've been good, Magnus would've found it really easy and Vulkan would've been hilarious - he'd keep coming back till he won

Last edited by Gret79; 01-10-14 at 08:13 AM.
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