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post #71 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 01:33 PM
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And of course the Wolves did not possess any advantage in motivation or psychology over other Marines. Nor did they possess greater physical prowess, or greater size. ?
Their natural senses have been described as being superior to the ones provided by their helms. It's hard not to say that physically they have the edge over their cousins in some aspects.
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post #72 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 01:43 PM
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Their natural senses have been described as being superior to the ones provided by their helms. It's hard not to say that physically they have the edge over their cousins in some aspects.
And the Thousand Sons had psyker powers.
And the Salamanders had super vision (thanks to McNeil in Angel Exterminatus).
And the Imperial Fists were more resistant to mental degradation (again according to McNeil in the same novel).
The Death Guard have, on a number of occasions, been depicted as being tougher than the average marine.
And so on and so on.

Having slightly superior senses to the other legions hardly makes them more ideal to fight them. So I wouldn't use that as an example of "physical superiority" over other legions that would justify them being picked as Executioners.

I could argue that all the legions with stable geneseed, and who didn't have the risk of turning into mutant werewolf monsters, had the edge over the Wolves in some aspects.

I am personally more inclined to side with Phoebus's views with regards to why the Wolves were chosen. Psychology and motivation, as opposed to any physical reason. A good example of this is during the Siege of Prospero. Ahriman and the Sons actually get the drop on the Wolves during one encounter but, because they hesitate for that split second while considering the fact that they are about to open fire on fellow marines, the Wolves get off the first shots.

A Thousand Sons, Chapter 27, pg. 486

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Astartes were at war with one another, and the sheer horror of that fact cost Ahriman a fraction of a second.
It was all the Space Wolves needed.
Though the Thousand Sons had been forewarned, still the Space Wolves fired first.
The Wolves didn't hesitate where the Thousand Sons did (and where most other legions probably would have hesitated as well).

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.

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post #73 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 02:28 PM
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Thats a good point
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post #74 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 04:44 PM
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Ignoring the other significant misconceptions for a minute:

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Alpha legion avoid direct combat with complicated plans
The Alpha Legion did not avoid direct combat, not at all.

As for the general discussion concerning which Legion was best suited to be the Emperor's executioners, I think the Space Wolves were the only logical choice (If indeed a conscious choice was made).

According to the latest timeline we have access to, the two Lost Legions suffered their "separate tragedies" 12 and 16 years before Alpharius even assumed command of the XXth Legion. This essentially rules the Alpha Legion out of the running as a sanction against two Legions was required prior to Alpharius even being discovered.

Without analysing each Legion in turn, the reasons I would suggest the Space Wolves as the natural choice is primarily because of the "motivation and psychology" angle as advocated by Phoebus (who has argued his case well). Running parallel to that I also think unflinching loyalty was a major factor. Would Sanguinius, Guilliman, Horus or Dorn have conducted a war against another Legion? Perhaps, but they certainly wouldn't have done without question or hesitation, and that's why the Emperor relied on the Wolves above all others in certain respects.
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post #75 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 05:12 PM
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I cannot remember; is there information regarding Alpharius' discovery in the current canon (as in, was it 30years before?) And when I mean current canon, I do not mean a loosely collated bit of information written during the 3rd edition phase (I think even prior to the 3.5e CSM Codex), which has been consistently overwritten and completely ignored several times in the past;

After all, since that was written, we have had a new Primarch added into the mix, the Sons of Horus have changed their colours, and the Emperor's Children have gone from 30 Lord Commanders to 2.



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post #76 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 06:05 PM
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I cannot remember; is there information regarding Alpharius' discovery in the current canon (as in, was it 30years before?) And when I mean current canon, I do not mean a loosely collated bit of information written during the 3rd edition phase (I think even prior to the 3.5e CSM Codex), which has been consistently overwritten and completely ignored several times in the past;

After all, since that was written, we have had a new Primarch added into the mix, the Sons of Horus have changed their colours, and the Emperor's Children have gone from 30 Lord Commanders to 2.
Horus Heresy: Betrayal has Alpharius assuming command of his Legion in 981.M30 - 24 years prior to Isstvan III.



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Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).
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post #77 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 08:31 PM
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Why did I not think to check there? Anyhow.

While I'm not suggesting that Horus had any say so in the matter of removing opposing Legions, but Horus had used the Alpha Legion (alongside IH, and Night Lords, both of whom he thought would follow him later on, so were loyal) on the Terentius campaign.

I think Ullanor had already happened? If so how likely was it that the Emperor, by proxy could have had Horus take command of the legion? Horus, henceforth knowing of the SW's capabilities then engineered magnus's and there's Mutually Assured Destruction.



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post #78 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 11:45 PM
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I think the Night Lords would have been a good choice for executioners, furthermore I have my belief that Konrad Curze was the original executioner and or he was one with Russ.

When the chaos gods were showing Lorgar visions of potential futures, one of them showed the Emperor sending executioners after him. It goes on to say that Curze is the one that rips out his heart and kills him, along with Russ there.

Perhaps Curze was the original executioner, and ties in with what he says "that the Emperor sanctioned what I have done". Perhaps Curze killed/eliminated the first wayward legion under the command of the Emperor, however he may have done so in a unfavorable way (in the eyes of the emperor). Thus the Emperor utilized Russ to take care of the second wayward legion rather than Konrad Curze.
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post #79 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 12:40 AM
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I think the Night Lords would have been a good choice for executioners, furthermore I have my belief that Konrad Curze was the original executioner and or he was one with Russ.

When the chaos gods were showing Lorgar visions of potential futures, one of them showed the Emperor sending executioners after him. It goes on to say that Curze is the one that rips out his heart and kills him, along with Russ there.

Perhaps Curze was the original executioner, and ties in with what he says "that the Emperor sanctioned what I have done". Perhaps Curze killed/eliminated the first wayward legion under the command of the Emperor, however he may have done so in a unfavorable way (in the eyes of the emperor). Thus the Emperor utilized Russ to take care of the second wayward legion rather than Konrad Curze.
And yet moments after the vision Lorgar saw of Curze ripping out his heart, the Changer of Ways showed him visions of Vulcan disemboweling Mortarian due to his vocal support against psykers.

You forget Lux that what Chaos says should be taken with a grain of pepper.
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post #80 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-09-14, 02:09 AM
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Yes, lets. But this time, lets try to be a little less biased eh?

Exactly, perfection in everything they do. Every stroke, perfect, every movement, perfect, every tactic, perfect. Remember that duel between lucius and loken? Lucius lost because loken sucker punched him.
Doesn't really mater as their box is absolutely massive and contains almost every possible scenario. They failed to think the impossible, but quickly fixed that mistake once it was revealed to be possible and then went so far as to run simulations against other Loyalists (something no one else did).
Clearly they failed, there's tons of times where the ultramarines screwed up on blatantly obvious things because of their arrogance.
But the Imperial Fists have one of the finest military records of all the Legions (I believe they were second or third in number of conquests). Did that many planets have walls, or are they capable of winning without them? Further, taking fortifications is one of the hardest things to do in a war, the fact that these Legions were really, really good at it shouldn't be held against them.
It would seem most planets have some sort of fortress, there's nothing saying a legion would realize having a single fortress is a bad idea, honsou realized this, I don't believe he was the first iron warrior to think this.

Horus is explicitly referred to as a a master tactician, yet you believe he used only one tactic?
Yeah their flaw is that they're too good at it. Bummer.
Aside from isstivan most of his tactics are gambles. Or are done because someone insults him.
Wait... complicated plans and avoiding casualties are bad?
The more complicated the part the worse things get.
And therefore have no fixed m.o. The Night Lords will do whatever is necessary to win, they are willing to go so far beyond anything other Marines (even the Wolves) are willing to do.
True, but they aren't reigned in. They have no control of themselves.
1) The Wolves have more control? Who lost it first in the Night of the Wolf? The Wolves are just as likely to lose control as the others. Look at Wolves at the Door, completely unnecessary butchery. The Wolves believe they are more controlled, but they don't show it.
2) Another word for 'pack tactics' is 'unit tactics', every modern military uses this, the Marines are no exception (aside from occasionally the World Eaters). I'll point to the comparison made between Marines and Custodes in First Heretic, in which I believe the 'wimps' of the Word Bearers are compared to wolves.
The world eaters are described of attacking anyone except for other world eaters when under the nails influence.

I don't recall the wolves doing that, their wulfen is directed towards the enemy.

What does it take to kill an Astartes?
"Dishonorable tactics" Or what the wolves do in prosporo seems to work.
So the Wolves, whose tactics seem to be 'frontal charge' and 'sneaky charge', are more flexible than the Ultramarines, whose vast tactical doctrine is the basis for the entire Imperium's military in 40k? Or the explicit tactical brilliance of several Primarchs (of which Russ is not one)?
Flanking angron while he's distracted by Russ isn't a charge now is it?
Quote:
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Ignoring the other significant misconceptions for a minute:



The Alpha Legion did not avoid direct combat, not at all.

As for the general discussion concerning which Legion was best suited to be the Emperor's executioners, I think the Space Wolves were the only logical choice (If indeed a conscious choice was made).

According to the latest timeline we have access to, the two Lost Legions suffered their "separate tragedies" 12 and 16 years before Alpharius even assumed command of the XXth Legion. This essentially rules the Alpha Legion out of the running as a sanction against two Legions was required prior to Alpharius even being discovered.

Without analysing each Legion in turn, the reasons I would suggest the Space Wolves as the natural choice is primarily because of the "motivation and psychology" angle as advocated by Phoebus (who has argued his case well). Running parallel to that I also think unflinching loyalty was a major factor. Would Sanguinius, Guilliman, Horus or Dorn have conducted a war against another Legion? Perhaps, but they certainly wouldn't have done without question or hesitation, and that's why the Emperor relied on the Wolves above all others in certain respects.
But it wasn't alpharious main tactic, he wanted to prove himself to his brothers, most stuff he did was to prove himself, do you honestly think if he was ordered to kill say gulliman he'd do to in the most efficient way possible? Or would he perform a seriously complex plan that involves impersonating members of the ultramarines and making it obvious what was going to happen before it happened?
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