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post #51 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-07-14, 10:16 AM
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And of course the second part, the one about Astartes fighting Astartes, we have the Night of the Wolf as one example of Astartes fighting against each other pre-Prospero.

In Massacre, Banestrike rounds have been in development by the Alpha Legion and given to the Sons of Horus as well.

The old arguments come back; if the Wolves were Executioners, why were they not larger in size? Why did they not have specialised equipment for Legion/Primarch slaying?



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post #52 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-07-14, 10:52 AM
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The Alpha Legion were/are more pragmatic than the Ultramarines then.

They probably came up with their own version of Guilliman's theoretical/practical way before him.
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post #53 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-07-14, 11:32 AM
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In Massacre, Banestrike rounds have been in development by the Alpha Legion and given to the Sons of Horus as well.

The old arguments come back; if the Wolves were Executioners, why were they not larger in size? Why did they not have specialised equipment for Legion/Primarch slaying?
Equipment and physical prowess might not have been as important to the Emperor as motivation and psychology.
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post #54 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-07-14, 08:29 PM
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One thing that occurred to me is maybe Russ' psychic howl which was so effective against the Thousand Sons actually made Angron more effective as we know what effect psychic abilities have on Angron's nails? Russ probably wouldn't have known this and so he howled as he probably always did and sent Angron into a rage Russ wasn't prepared for.

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post #55 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-07-14, 10:27 PM
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The Alpha Legion were/are more pragmatic than the Ultramarines then.

They probably came up with their own version of Guilliman's theoretical/practical way before him.
No, the Banestrike rounds were a result of the Alpha Legion knowing they were going to be fighting other Space Marines. To the Ultramarines, and every other legion, it simply wasn't a theoretical worth considering. Space Marines didn't go to war with Space Marines. Once the Heresy broke out though the Ultramarines adapted, running theoreticals and practicals against every other legion, even the loyalists. That smacks of pragmatism. The Alpha Legion merely had prior knowledge.

I doubt the Alpha Legion came up with it before hand, being the last legion founded and Alpharius the last primarch found, be a large margin. Guilliman was around, leading his legion long, long before.

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post #56 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 12:08 AM
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No, the Banestrike rounds were a result of the Alpha Legion knowing they were going to be fighting other Space Marines. To the Ultramarines, and every other legion, it simply wasn't a theoretical worth considering. Space Marines didn't go to war with Space Marines. Once the Heresy broke out though the Ultramarines adapted, running theoreticals and practicals against every other legion, even the loyalists. That smacks of pragmatism. The Alpha Legion merely had prior knowledge.

I doubt the Alpha Legion came up with it before hand, being the last legion founded and Alpharius the last primarch found, be a large margin. Guilliman was around, leading his legion long, long before.
We have an example of what the Ultramarines would have thought of running theoreticals against other Marines pre-heresy. From Know no Fear:

‘Sergeant Thiel. Do you happen to know why he was under censure?’ ‘I do, sir,’ says Jaer. ‘His commanding officer discovered that he was running theoreticals on how to fight and defeat Space Marines, sir. Thiel claimed, in his defence, that he had run theoreticals on all other major adversaries, and it was a tactical blind spot not to know how to fight the Legions. He said, as I understand it, that the Space Marines of the Imperium were the greatest warriors in the galaxy, and thus had an obligation to understand how to fight and defeat the greatest warriors in the galaxy. Thiel declared that Space Marines were the only opponents left worth any theoretical study. His theoreticals were regarded as treasonous thought, and he was referred to the flagship for censure.’ ‘That was his infraction?’ asks Gage. ‘Looks bloody pitiful from where we’re standing, doesn’t it?’ asks Jaer.
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post #57 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 01:01 AM
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No, the Banestrike rounds were a result of the Alpha Legion knowing they were going to be fighting other Space Marines. To the Ultramarines, and every other legion, it simply wasn't a theoretical worth considering. Space Marines didn't go to war with Space Marines. Once the Heresy broke out though the Ultramarines adapted, running theoreticals and practicals against every other legion, even the loyalists. That smacks of pragmatism. The Alpha Legion merely had prior knowledge.

I doubt the Alpha Legion came up with it before hand, being the last legion founded and Alpharius the last primarch found, be a large margin. Guilliman was around, leading his legion long, long before.
Isn't that the beauty of the AL? In the short time they were founded, they developed this paranoia of their brother legions to the point where they started anti-Astartes weapons production at such an early stage.
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post #58 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 02:50 AM
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No, the Banestrike rounds were a result of the Alpha Legion knowing they were going to be fighting other Space Marines. To the Ultramarines, and every other legion, it simply wasn't a theoretical worth considering. Space Marines didn't go to war with Space Marines. Once the Heresy broke out though the Ultramarines adapted, running theoreticals and practicals against every other legion, even the loyalists. That smacks of pragmatism. The Alpha Legion merely had prior knowledge.

I doubt the Alpha Legion came up with it before hand, being the last legion founded and Alpharius the last primarch found, be a large margin. Guilliman was around, leading his legion long, long before.
The alpha legions are spies, and given their nature they're going to be crazy prepared for everything.

It's also ironic that none of the primarchs would consider yeah maybe we should study astartes since there was 20 of us.
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post #59 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 05:05 AM
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Equipment and physical prowess might not have been as important to the Emperor as motivation and psychology.
Equipment is the easiest way to give someone an edge over a specific foe. Motivation and psychology have a limited role in creating such an edge, especially between two opponents of such similar motivation and psychology.

And of course the Wolves did not possess any advantage in motivation or psychology over other Marines. Nor did they possess greater physical prowess, or greater size. The only remaining ways to improve their odds against Marines would be equipment and training. They weren't given any special equipment and they weren't given any special training. How then can they be more effective as Executioners than another Legion?

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post #60 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-08-14, 05:47 AM
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Equipment is the easiest way to give someone an edge over a specific foe. Motivation and psychology have a limited role in creating such an edge, especially between two opponents of such similar motivation and psychology.

And of course the Wolves did not possess any advantage in motivation or psychology over other Marines. Nor did they possess greater physical prowess, or greater size. The only remaining ways to improve their odds against Marines would be equipment and training. They weren't given any special equipment and they weren't given any special training. How then can they be more effective as Executioners than another Legion?
Let's analyze the legions.

The word bearers are a bunch of wimps who build churches.
The world eaters tactical book is charge directly at nearest enemy regardless of what happens
Emperors children is more concerned with perfection than getting shit done.
Ultramarines are incapable of thinking out of the box. Frankly by this time the one guy who considered the possibility of astartes vs astartes combat was disgraced.
The dark angels I really don't know the lion probably had his own agenda
Death guard did frontal assaults
Iron warriors and imperial fists worked best against walls
the luna wolves used tip of the spear tactics.
blood angels were CC specialists with have a serious flaw.
Alpha legion avoid direct combat with complicated plans
Night lords use terror
Raven guard use stealth.
salamanders like to burn things
Iron hands appear to use overwhelming force
White scars use fast attack.
The 1K sons are psykers whatever their others tactics are I don't know.
Then finally the wolves, they do the berserker charge of the world eaters and BA but they seem to have more control over it, they also use pack tactics as evident in the night of the wolves.

Aside from the DA and maybe alpha legion the wolves were the only ones who could be executioners, everyone else either didn't specialize in what it would take to kill an astartes. Or wasn't flexible enough to get the job one.
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