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post #31 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 05:51 PM
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Why did Russ decide to teach Angron some lesson? And as someone else pointed out did Russ on purpose lose the martial combat to Angron to teach him a lesson ?
Russ tried to use words to reason with Angron. The conversation escalated to a point where Angron made a comment about potentially going to Terra and taking the Emperor's head. At which point Russ lost it and "launched" himself at Angron, kicking off their fight. That's the beauty of it though in terms of the Wolves. Russ didn't need to make any effort to teach him a lesson there. The Wolves did it for him by always having his back, and being able to step in when their primarch was in trouble. In comparison to the World Eaters pretty much left Angron to fend for himself, with only a few of them trying (ineffectually) to reach the primarchs when they realised the tables had turned. The majority of the Worlds Eaters legion was lost to the nails, so intent on slaughtering Space Wolves that they paid no attention to Russ and Angron.

There was nothing there to suggest to me that Russ lost on purpose. To me it would have made more of an impact if he had not only bested Angron, but also had the Wolves at his back while he did it. It would have proven that Angron's methods are not only ineffectual in terms of the bigger picture, but fighting without any kind of restraint whatsoever it is also not good for one-on-one combat. But as we know, the Wolves did in fact take more casualties and Angron beat Russ. Hence why they added in the bit in Betrayer about the Night of the Wolf, where they say that despite how both sides claimed victory, both secretly feared they had lost.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.

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post #32 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 07:01 PM
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If I remember correctly Russ loss the fight to Angron in martial combat but won the overall battle by having the Space wolves surround Angron and could of killed Angron but didn't. what I don't understand is Russ plays the executioner role and why didn't Russ kill off Angron?

I mean what was the point to teach Angron anything when you are the executioner and the role is to kill off.

Is that why the Emperor order Horus to rein in Angron becaus Russ failed?
Russ had his ass whipped both physically and verbally and ironically was the one who attacked first.

His leason meant nothing Since Angron did not care if he lived or died.

And Russ was NOT ordered by the emperor to bring Angron in he overstepped his bounds and paid for it badly when he could'nt bully Angron into going to Terra with him.
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post #33 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 07:08 PM
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Who's the strongest is up for debate Horus was scared of sanguinious, saying that if he turned he would have killed horus and took over the rebellion.

The only real info we have is that of the few primarchs that could defeat angron in combat were horus and sanguinious.

There's no info as to whose stronger or anything.

The wolves can be restrained, if they are ordered to.

What I was trying to say that if they were ordered to kill a primarch they wouldn't stop. They wouldn't have gloated in gullimans face.

Gulliman did survive barely. The book makes it clear that he was in bad shape. The armour he was wearing for ceremonial armour it's protection was probably a little better than flakk armour.

A single wolf wouldn't kill a primarch, however a pack working as one would.
Like say a pack of Wolves who where thrown around by Curze for a light workout.

The only chance a pack has is against an unarmoured primarch taking a dump and even then it would be a small chance.
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post #34 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 07:42 PM
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Like say a pack of Wolves who where thrown around by Curze for a light workout.
Two Primarchs were also thrown.
Curze was "overpowered" in that book.

Idea about having pack of hunters watching your actions, makes you think twice before doing some anti-Emperor actions\treachery. I think that was symbolical threat.




What? Boo is outraged! See his fury! It's small, so look close. Trust me, it's there.
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post #35 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 07:48 PM
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Two Primarchs were also thrown.
Curze was "overpowered" in that book.

Idea about having pack of hunters watching your actions, makes you think twice before doing some anti-Emperor actions\treachery. I think that was symbolical threat.
Correct they are a symbolic threat and an early warning system for Malcador.

No one pack of Wolves is killing a Primarch however if a pack of wolves tasked to watch a primarch suddenly stop checking in something is probably wrong.

Same as the Custodes tasked to watch Lorgar.
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post #36 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 08:01 PM
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Why did Russ decide to teach Angron some lesson? And as someone else pointed out did Russ on purpose lose the martial combat to Angron to teach him a lesson ? It kind of doesn't make sense to me.
I mean why care for Angron.

Usually it's been from my assumption that each legions are kind of selfish and in some ways are competing against each other to be the best legion.
Not selfishness. Pretty much the opposite.

Russ sees that his brother is degenerating, and is pulling his legion down with him, so he stages an intervention. From Betrayer:

Angron chased as the Wolf King staggered to his feet, but Russ opened his arms wide, offering no fight. ‘Do you see?’ he said. No, he barked it. He barked it not like a simple beast, but with human passion backed by canine ferocity. Conviction burned in his eyes – the same instinctive viciousness of a dog defending its family. ‘Look, damn you. Look around you. Do you see what you’ve done to your sons?’ At the battle’s core, sense pierced Angron’s aching sight long enough to leave him speechless. The axe in his hand lowered, and he looked out at the ranks of Wolves facing him with their bolters raised. They came in ragged packs, abandoning the warfare to form a ring around the primarchs. Wolf after Wolf – close enough for Angron to make out the individual totems and talismans rattling against their storm-grey armour – moving to stand in ragged ranks with their brothers.

‘You didn’t answer Russ’s question,’ he said. ‘Did you truly learn nothing from that fight?’ Angron blinked, the dull edge of surprise coming into his eyes. ‘What revelation should I have come to? I learned he wasn’t allowed to kill me. I learned he postured in the hope of bringing me back to Terra, collared and submissive to his whims.’ ‘No.’ Lorgar was almost breathless in disbelief. ‘No, no, no. Angron, you stubborn fool. None of that matters.’ ‘There were more dead Wolves on that field than dead World Eaters. That matters.’ That, thought Lorgar, was also arguable, but he let it pass. ‘Russ had you cold. You said you had him at your mercy, but he crawled free.’ ‘He crawled.’ Angron chuckled again, making a meal of the word. ‘And when he rose, he had you surrounded. He could have killed you.’ ‘He tried and failed.’ ‘His men, Angron. His Legion could have killed you. Whether the Emperor ordered it or not, Russ spared your life. He didn’t retreat in shame, you arrogant…’ Lorgar sighed. ‘He was probably lamenting your thick skull all the way back to Terra, hoping you’d heed a rather consummate lesson in brotherhood and loyalty. Look what happened. Yes, you beat him in a duel. Yes, your men took down more of his than his of yours. And yet, who won the battle?’ ‘The World Eaters,’ Angron said without hesitation.

Lorgar just stared at him for several seconds. ‘I appreciate that every living being must, by the nature of perception, understand and process life in a different way. But even for you, brother, this is achingly obtuse.’ ‘You’re saying the Wolves won.’ Angron looked more amused than confused. ‘How can you not see it?’ Lorgar steepled his fingers, trying to rein in his own temper. ‘They won a victory worthy of engraving on their armour for all time. While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance. He proves his sons’ loyalty, while yours leave you to die. He proves the damage the Nails are doing to your Legion. He proves the tactical strength of taking an objective rather than fighting purely to kill. He spares your life in the hope you’ll see all of this, in a lesson it cost him heavily to teach you, and your reaction is to grin and claim yourself the victor.’ Angron didn’t chuckle that time. Lorgar could see it in his brother’s tensed muscles – some cognitive switch had clicked somewhere in his consciousness, and Angron’s rage was rising again. ‘Only one of us ran away that night. He’s weak.’ ‘Gods’ blood.’ Lorgar was still managing, barely, to speak calmly. ‘The primarchs are the bridge between the Emperor and the species he leads. We are all weak, for we are all equal. All of us. We are humanity magnified: its virtues and its flaws.’ ‘I am not weak. I have never been weak.’ ‘You are not only weak if you fail to understand Russ’s lesson, you are also a fool.’
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post #37 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 08:15 PM
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BS Russ was the one to strike first.

Russ overstepped his bounds and assumed that it fell to him to reign in Angron.

He taught Angron a lesson a lesson that meant nothing to Angron as he never gave a damn about his legion or his own life as far as he was concerned he died at de'shea.

Russ may have won the tactical battle but he lost the duel with Angron both physically and verbally.
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post #38 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 10:57 PM
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Where the two separate tragedies are concerned... that's the exact language that is used in "The Lightning Tower": "separate tragedies".
Ha! That's what I get for posting so late at night. I meant to say, "It is highly unlikely the Wolves were the cause of destroying both Legions since they met separate tragedies." Whoopsies.

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. At any rate, I would it find it bizarre if, after all the hinting in Prospero Burns
Which hinting are you talking about? How the Wolves spoke in the dropship about being the Executioner's sons? Or the ending line with Russ talking about this not being the first time Astartes fought Astartes?

The first can be dismissed by everyone and their mom. Looking back on Betrayer, they are STILL merely rumored to be the Emperor's executioners as of the Ghenna scouring. And remember how late this would have to be, since Angron was amongst the last Primarchs to be found...and he's been around for a while at this point.
It also mentions how even the Primarchs doubted the validity of this supposed title.

And of course the second part, the one about Astartes fighting Astartes, we have the Night of the Wolf as one example of Astartes fighting against each other pre-Prospero.

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Why would they be refereed to as the Executioners, or refer to themselves as such long before Nikaea if they hadn't already done an action that would convey that epithet?
It seemed their reputation as Executioners was still unclear up to at least the Ghenna Massacre. As I said earlier, I can only speculate the Massacre happened after the events that lead to the disappearance of the two Unknown Legions.
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post #39 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 11:32 PM
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Like say a pack of Wolves who where thrown around by Curze for a light workout.

The only chance a pack has is against an unarmoured primarch taking a dump and even then it would be a small chance.
Curze also beat two primarchs one of which was hunting him on curzes own turf for months.

Curze's entire purpose was blade porn nothing more. Given the fact that the only other astartes who drew his blood had support from an Iron warrior using xeno tech.

The alpha legion also had gulliman however he was protected by plot armour nothing more.
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post #40 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-06-14, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Karthak
Russ sees that his brother is degenerating, and is pulling his legion down with him, so he stages an intervention. From Betrayer:
There's nothing in that quote that suggests Russ 'intervened' because he wanted to change Angron's behaviour and world view. I think it's safe to say that Russ never planned to be forced to crawl for his life, that he never planned for hundreds of his sons to be killed. Indeed that ending was very close to Russ himself being killed, Angron could hardly be counted on to pull out of his rage and his death was unlikely to be swift enough to stop him (it is possible he wouldn't have died at all). Personally I don't see Russ being willing to take those risks.

Nor do I see any evidence that Russ actually cared about Angron. Lorgar does, and so he interprets Russ' actions a specific way, but Russ very well may not have meant them that way. It seems to me that he wanted Angron sanctioned, he changed this to dead when he couldn't persuade him to come willingly and when it became clear that he couldn't kill Angron he settled for a moral victory.

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While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance. He proves his sons’ loyalty, while yours leave you to die. He proves the damage the Nails are doing to your Legion. He proves the tactical strength of taking an objective rather than fighting purely to kill. He spares your life in the hope you’ll see all of this, in a lesson it cost him heavily to teach you, and your reaction is to grin and claim yourself the victor.’


This lesson is of questionable validity. He claims that Russ' sons threatening Angron's life represents 'taking the objective', what then does Angron threatening Russ' life represent? If the Primarch is the objective than the World Eaters took it with less effort, freeing up more of their force to secure secondary objectives (such as the elimination of opposition). Lorgar claims Angron was outmaneuvered but surely it was the Wolves, forced to respond to their Primarch's failing, that were maneuvered, forced to leave the rest of their force outnumbered? In a frontal clash such as the SW and WE engaged in killing the enemy is the only objective, the World Eaters demonstrated a willingness to achieve that objective at all costs while the Wolves abandon victory for emotion.

If this is the lesson Russ sacrificed his sons and risked his life for, then he is the fool, not Angron.

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Curze's entire purpose was blade porn nothing more. Given the fact that the only other astartes who drew his blood had support from an Iron warrior using xeno tech.

The alpha legion also had gulliman however he was protected by plot armour nothing more.
Were Night Haunter and Guilliman protected by plot armour or were the Wolves/Alpha Legion?

We have extensive evidence showing us that Marines are nothing to Primarchs, we have one source where they suddenly become credible threats. Is it more likely that every prior source is exaggerating, or just this one?

"Look into my eyes, and see your death."
"Let them hate, so long as they fear."
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