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post #21 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 07:53 AM
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I don't see how this is that ambiguous. Faffnr references the rumored duty for which his Legion is so notorious, and Guilliman knocks him down a peg. He's essentially saying, "You're not that special for doing what you claim; we all do what me must, according to our ability.
That all makes sense...until Fafnnr says, "Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh?" What sort of reputation are they deserving of now, suddenly, that they would not have deserved after annihilating two other Legions 50 years before?

Also it is incredibly unlikely the two lost Legions met their ends in two separate tragedies.
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post #22 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 09:10 AM
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Where the two separate tragedies are concerned... that's the exact language that is used in "The Lightning Tower": "separate tragedies". Furthermore, the new Forgeworld book, Massacre, strongly implies that II and XI met their respective ends 37 and 41 years before the Isstvan Dropsite Massacres.

Where the Space Wolves are concerned, I agree that the language used is not the most straightforward... but I just don't see how Guilliman is somehow saying that this didn't happen. At any rate, I would it find it bizarre if, after all the hinting in Prospero Burns and the fact that Space Wolves are specifically given orders to be ready to kill the Loyalist Primarchs in two different novels, the VI Legion's involvement with the Missing Primarchs was merely a rumor.

I'm not saying that couldn't happen; I'm just saying that, in my humble opinion, it would go against the grain of what has been presented thus far.
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post #23 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 09:44 AM
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Who's the strongest is up for debate Horus was scared of sanguinious, saying that if he turned he would have killed horus and took over the rebellion.

The only real info we have is that of the few primarchs that could defeat angron in combat were horus and sanguinious.

There's no info as to whose stronger or anything.
With regards to Angron and Russ, it is not stated who is specifically physically stronger. The only direct strength comparison in their fight is when Russ "launches" himself and takes a swing at Angron, but Angron blocks it and knocks him back. But that isn't a clear indication of anything. It could simply have been a case of better application of leverage and the manner in which he initially checked Russ' blow. To me it's pretty clear that Angron is the better combatant though, considering their fight and what we know about the two.

However it is clearly stated who is right after Vulkan in terms of pure strength: Ferrus Manus. It's stated quite clearly in the one short story set post Isstvan where they show Vulkan throwing around tanks like toys, and the one legionnaire watching still remarks that the only person who might have been Vulkan's rival in strength was Ferrus, but that it's a moot point since Ferrus lost his head.

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A single wolf wouldn't kill a primarch, however a pack working as one would.
Ummm... wasn't that exactly what they tried on the Night Haunter and kinda failed miserably? But yeah, as has been stated, there is no actual proof that a pack of Wolves could in fact kill primarch. Wound one? certainly. Kill one? No. And I would say that an equal number of marines from any other legion could achieve the same as the Wolves could. The fact that the Alpha Legion managed to trick, get the jump on and seriously injure Guilliman, where as the Wolves got punked and brutalised by Curze, speaks volumes too IMO.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.

Last edited by Chompy Bits; 01-05-14 at 10:06 AM.
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post #24 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 09:57 AM
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With regards to Angron and Russ, it is not stated who is specifically physically stronger. The only direct strength comparison in their fight is when Russ "launches" himself and takes a swing at Angron, but Angron blocks it and knocks him back. But that isn't a clear indication of anything. It could simply have been a case of better application of leverage and the manner in which he initially checked Russ' blow. To me it's pretty clear that Angron is the better combatant though, considering their fight and what we know about the two.

However it is clearly stated who is right after Vulkan in terms of pure strength: Ferrus Manus. It's stated quite clearly in the one short story set post Isstvan where they show Vulkan throwing around tanks like toys, and the one legionnaire watching still remarks that the only person who might have been Vulkan's rival in strength was Ferrus, but that it's a moot point since Ferrus lost his head.



Ummm... wasn't that exactly what they tried on the Night Haunter and kinda failed miserably?
I won't argue vulkan isn't the strongest because he probably is.

Keep in mind that Russ's plan was to get angron flanked. He knew that angron would respond only one way.

I wouldn't say they failed, after all they did fight night haunter in his environment and only lost three of their pack. That other squad plus the DA's in the drop pod were wiped out to a man and the DA's knew he was on their ship.
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post #25 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 10:16 AM
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That all makes sense...until Fafnnr says, "Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh?" What sort of reputation are they deserving of now, suddenly, that they would not have deserved after annihilating two other Legions 50 years before?

Also it is incredibly unlikely the two lost Legions met their ends in two separate tragedies.

How about looking at it this way potentially. The Wolves are sent to sanction the XI Legion, then later on down the line are then ordered to sanction the II. They now get the reputation and title, official or not as the Emperors executioners. To some, such as Guilliman, two separate events form a line, not a pattern, chalk it up to coincidence, Russ and his Legion just might have been in the right place at the right time for both separate events to be chosen. Ergo, Guilliman and others think the reputation is undeserved. But then factor in the Burning of Prospero and you now have three separate incidents, now you have a pattern.

Speculation of course, but makes enough sense to me. Regardless, from all the hints and comments that have been dropped over the series, I'm more than convinced that the Vlka Fenryka carried out the execution of at least one of the missing legions, if not both.

Look to The Outcast Dead, why would the Gregora(think it was him..) upon learning of that it was Magnus that caused all the chaos say to Kai when asked what would happen next, that "The Wolves will be unleashed again" or similar words to that effect, 'again' being the key word. Why would the Wolves be chosen by Malcador to send a pack to the side of all the remaining loyalist Primarchs? When Guilliman confronts Lorgar over his betrayal, he rages at him "Pathetic. Our father should have left you out in the snow at birth. He should have fed you to Russ. You worm. You maggot.", again...why Russ? Why would they be refereed to as the Executioners, or refer to themselves as such long before Nikaea if they hadn't already done an action that would convey that epithet?

Again, from all the material we have from the Heresy series and Forgeworld, I don't need any more convincing.
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post #26 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 10:25 AM
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Keep in mind that Russ's plan was to get angron flanked. He knew that angron would respond only one way.
Was that Russ' plan the whole time, or is that what he went with after it became clear that he couldn't beat Angron? Did Russ really plan to sacrifice his men to teach Angron a lesson he was unlikely to learn? What in Russ' character suggests that he would behave that way?

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post #27 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 10:30 AM
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I won't argue vulkan isn't the strongest because he probably is.
Nothing probable to me. Vulkan even explicitly states in Vulkan Lives that the Emperor made him the strongest, but he always held back his strength when sparring/dueling with his brothers. Also, Vulkan pushed a friggin' super-heavy tank (think it was Stormsword but can't exactly remember) around in that same novel, a vehicle that weights over 300 tons. No other primarch has displayed any strength feat close to that, the only one coming anywhere in the same ball park being Angron's titan leg feat. They honestly pumped Vulkan up to almost Hulk (though not enraged Hulk) levels of strength in recent novels.

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Keep in mind that Russ's plan was to get angron flanked. He knew that angron would respond only one way.
Except it was Russ who threw the first strike, not Angron. Angron baited Russ and Russ lost his temper. There is nothing to suggest that it was Russ's plan to flank Angron. More a case of the Wolves seeing their primarch was in danger and acted to support him, where as the World Eaters, lost to the nails, paid no heed to the clash between primarchs.

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I wouldn't say they failed, after all they did fight night haunter in his environment and only lost three of their pack. That other squad plus the DA's in the drop pod were wiped out to a man and the DA's knew he was on their ship.
How did they not fail? They tried to kill him, they didn't succeed. Hence failure. The DA squad in the drop pod just failed worse. And the Dark Angels knew he was on their ship, not that he was about to hitch a ride on one of their drop pods.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.

Last edited by Chompy Bits; 01-05-14 at 10:48 AM.
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post #28 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 12:40 PM
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The third time is immediately after the Siege of Terra, when the Lion blames Russ for them arriving late. Russ is despondent and bares his chest, inviting the Lion to kill him. The Lion is so enraged that he stabs him, but at the last second he realizes what he's doing and pulls his blow. When Russ awakens, the Lion begs his forgiveness and the two become fast friends.
Such a powerful scene. There needs to be a short story about it or a major part of a novel dedicated to it but alas, we must wait for quite a long time for the SoT to start making an appearance in the books (and that's a good thing, I don't want the HH series to ever 'end').
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post #29 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 02:26 PM
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Agreed!
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post #30 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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Why did Russ decide to teach Angron some lesson? And as someone else pointed out did Russ on purpose lose the martial combat to Angron to teach him a lesson ? It kind of doesn't make sense to me.
I mean why care for Angron.

Usually it's been from my assumption that each legions are kind of selfish and in some ways are competing against each other to be the best legion.
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