Russ Vs Angron - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Fluff Discuss GW background material here. All those bits in the Codex that aren't stat blocks or special rules. Post your custom character/chapter/army background in our Homebrew Fluff subforum!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 04:49 AM
Senior Member
hailene's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 2,215
Reputation: 17
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
Guess what Legion is listed as being associated with those two events (ironic, given that everything else is, well, redacted)? The Space Wolves
With the release of The Unremembered Empire, I do not believe the Space Wolves had a direct hand in destroying those two Legions. A conversation between Guilliman and Faffnr, his Space Wolf executioner:

G: Your reputation as the sanction is well known, and perhaps undeserved. We all serve according to our courage...

F: You heard the fate that befell Prospero?

G: The Wolves were unleashed to issue sanction to Magnus.

F: Yes. Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh

So that means, up to the burning of Prospero, the reputation may have been undeserved...hard to have an undeserved reputation IF they had destroyed two Legions previously.

Unless there's a 3-strike you're out policy on reputations or something.

Last edited by hailene; 01-05-14 at 05:21 AM.
hailene is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 05:07 AM
Senior Member
 
MEQinc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
MEQinc,

Are you so sure of that?
I was... but it seems I rather drastically misremembered parts. Thanks for pointing out my error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Given what we know of the wolves of all the astartes they have the best chance of killing a primarch who knows they are coming.
What is it that we know about the Wolves that makes this the case? Given what we know of the Primarchs I don't think a dozen of any Legion would be enough to give any Primarch even a moments pause.

Quote:
Stating that russ could be angron based on a single battle where he wasn't even trying to kill him isn't a good comparison.
I assume this in response to point 3 in my first post? I'm which case I wasn't saying that Russ couldn't beat Angron, I'm saying that he hadn't in that battle. The OP was wondering why Russ didn't kill him at the end of that fight, I was just pointing out that he couldn't really at that point I'm time.

"Look into my eyes, and see your death."
"Let them hate, so long as they fear."
MEQinc is offline  
post #13 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 05:29 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,685
Reputation: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hailene View Post
With the release of The Unremembered Empire, I do not believe the Space Wolves had a direct hand in destroying those two Legions. A conversation between Guilliman and Faffnr, his Space Wolf executioner:

G: Your reputation as the sanction is well known, and perhaps undeserved. We all serve according to our courage...

F: You heard the fate that befell Prospero?

G: The Wolves were unleashed to issue sanction to Magnus.

F: Yes. Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh

So that means, up to the burning of Prospero, the reputation may have been undeserved...hard to have an undeserved reputation IF they had destroyed two Legions previously.

Unless there's a 3-strike you're out policy on reputations or something.
Keep in mind they were forbidden to speak of what happened to the two legions. When that conversation took place they were in a room with many other's. Some of which may have had no knowledge of what happened.

It's one thing to speak about it between brothers or between ones who know about it, but hinting at things to a general audience is a bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
What is it that we know about the Wolves that makes this the case? Given what we know of the Primarchs I don't think a dozen of any Legion would be enough to give any Primarch even a moments pause.
Same novel ten alpha legionaries nearly kill Gulliman, the only reason why he wasn't killed is because the one holding a bolter to his head hesitated.

From what we know of the wolves they wouldn't hold back. They also were the only squad in the novel that wounded curze in his home turf. They don't care about survival, they believe in completing the mission above all else.
Reaper45 is offline  
 
post #14 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 05:58 AM
Senior Member
 
MEQinc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Keep in mind they were forbidden to speak of what happened to the two legions. When that conversation took place they were in a room with many other's. Some of which may have had no knowledge of what happened.
Guilliman would know. Guilliman would not suggest that their reputation was undeserved if he knew them to be responsible for the others.

Quote:
From what we know of the wolves they wouldn't hold back.
What we know of the Wolves is that they absolutely will hold back, until told not to. What is it that Kharn says about them? That they should've called themselves dogs. That unlike the World Eaters (and the Night Lords) they can be restrained. If all it took to be the executioners or to take out a Primarch was to not hold back then either of those Legions would be better.

Quote:
They don't care about survival, they believe in completing the mission above all else.
Several other Legions hold the mission as being of paramount importance. Including the Alpha Legion, who hesitate to kill Guilliman. That being the case I don't think its fair to say the none of the Space Wolves would hesitate.


Also I can't speak to the events you are referencing directly but I'll just point out that its a long way from injured or even 'near dead' to dead for a Primarch. How many Primarchs have we seen survive wounds that should've been mortal? How many have we seen pick themselves up from being moments from death to peak effectiveness in seconds. How many have seen kill their way through marines like they weren't even there?

"Look into my eyes, and see your death."
"Let them hate, so long as they fear."
MEQinc is offline  
post #15 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 06:02 AM
Deathwing Commissar
 
Phoebus's Avatar
Phoebus's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Wandering...
Posts: 1,846
Reputation: 23
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hailene View Post
With the release of The Unremembered Empire, I do not believe the Space Wolves had a direct hand in destroying those two Legions. A conversation between Guilliman and Faffnr, his Space Wolf executioner: ...
You don't?

In case anyone is interested, here is the conversation in question:

Quote:
“What is your duty, pack-leader?’
‘Our duty is what our duty has always been – to do what others will not. To do the unthinkable, if the unthinkable must be thought.’
‘Your reputation as the sanction is well known,’ said Guilliman, ‘and perhaps undeserved. We all serve according to our courage.’
‘Wolves serve beyond that. We are the executioner’s sons.’
‘Who have you come to execute, Faffnr Bludbroder?’
Faffnr hesitated. He reached under his pelt and produced a sheaf of parchment.
‘I see no point hiding it,’ he said, holding the document out. ‘Read for yourself, Jarl Guilliman.’
‘No, tell me in your own words.’
Faffnr kept the parchment extended.
‘Look at it at least. See the seal of the Wolf King, and beside it the sigil of Malcador. Know where this instruction comes from, and the authority it contains.’
Guilliman took the document, unfolded it and studied the marks.
‘Authenticate it if you must,’ said Faffnr.
‘I don’t have to. This is real.’
‘You heard the fate that befell Prospero?’ asked the pack-leader.
‘The Wolves were unleashed to issue sanction to Magnus.’
‘Yes. Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh?’
‘Go on.’
Faffnr paused. In the eye slots of his straked and knotted leather hood, his golden eyes blinked once, twice.
‘If one can fall, more can fall. More have fallen. Half have fallen. It has been decreed that a company of Wolves be sent to the hearth-side of every one of the Emperor’s sons, to watch them.’
‘For what?’ asked Guilliman.
‘For signs of treachery, of heresy.’
‘And if such signs become visible?’
‘Then we are to act.’
‘Act?’ asked Guilliman. ‘You’re saying that you are here to watch me? To shadow me? And if you perceive my actions to be in any way untoward, what? You are authorised to enact sanction?’
‘By the Sigillite, so authorised.’
Guilliman laughed. ‘You would… cut my thread?’
‘If needs be. Primarchs are not invincible. Some already sleep upon the red snow.”

Excerpt From: Dan Abnett. “The Unremembered Empire.” iBooks.
I don't see how this is that ambiguous. Faffnr references the rumored duty for which his Legion is so notorious, and Guilliman knocks him down a peg. He's essentially saying, "You're not that special for doing what you claim; we all do what me must, according to our ability." At no point does he dispute the events that give Faffnr cause to consider his Legion legitimate executioners of Primarchs.

At best, I think it can be surmised that Faffnr was not part of the Sanctions against II and XI, and thus can't directly refute Guilliman's claims, but he was present at Prospero and uses it to back his argument.
Phoebus is offline  
post #16 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 06:07 AM
Senior Member
 
Stormxlr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 443
Reputation: 7
Default

If like some said that Angron is equal to Russ and Lion beat Russ in a fair duel. Doesnt that make Lion the most powerful combatant among the primarchs? not counting chaos buffed Horus.
Stormxlr is offline  
post #17 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 06:19 AM
Senior Member
 
MEQinc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
If like some said that Angron is equal to Russ and Lion beat Russ in a fair duel. Doesnt that make Lion the most powerful combatant among the primarchs? not counting chaos buffed Horus.
Well Angron is potentially superior to Russ but more importantly the Lion only 'won' their duel because Russ stopped fighting making it basically impossible to get any useful information about their relative fighting skills.

"Look into my eyes, and see your death."
"Let them hate, so long as they fear."
MEQinc is offline  
post #18 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 06:37 AM
Deathwing Commissar
 
Phoebus's Avatar
Phoebus's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Wandering...
Posts: 1,846
Reputation: 23
Default

Actually, the Lion and Russ fought each other at least three times.

The first time was on Dulan, prior to the Heresy, and it was no duel at all. Russ was outraged that the Lion slew a tyrant that he himself had vowed to kill. Russ stormed into the Lion's tent and decked him. The two brawled for some time, until Russ began laughing. The Lion was less than amused, and knocked him out cold.

The second time is not dated, but it is perhaps the most proper "duel" between the two. All we know about it is that the Lion stabbed Russ through one of his hearts, and that the duel was declared a draw.

The third time is immediately after the Siege of Terra, when the Lion blames Russ for them arriving late. Russ is despondent and bares his chest, inviting the Lion to kill him. The Lion is so enraged that he stabs him, but at the last second he realizes what he's doing and pulls his blow. When Russ awakens, the Lion begs his forgiveness and the two become fast friends.
Phoebus is offline  
post #19 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 06:38 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,685
Reputation: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
If like some said that Angron is equal to Russ and Lion beat Russ in a fair duel. Doesnt that make Lion the most powerful combatant among the primarchs? not counting chaos buffed Horus.
Who's the strongest is up for debate Horus was scared of sanguinious, saying that if he turned he would have killed horus and took over the rebellion.

The only real info we have is that of the few primarchs that could defeat angron in combat were horus and sanguinious.

There's no info as to whose stronger or anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
Guilliman would know. Guilliman would not suggest that their reputation was undeserved if he knew them to be responsible for the others.



What we know of the Wolves is that they absolutely will hold back, until told not to. What is it that Kharn says about them? That they should've called themselves dogs. That unlike the World Eaters (and the Night Lords) they can be restrained. If all it took to be the executioners or to take out a Primarch was to not hold back then either of those Legions would be better.



Several other Legions hold the mission as being of paramount importance. Including the Alpha Legion, who hesitate to kill Guilliman. That being the case I don't think its fair to say the none of the Space Wolves would hesitate.


Also I can't speak to the events you are referencing directly but I'll just point out that its a long way from injured or even 'near dead' to dead for a Primarch. How many Primarchs have we seen survive wounds that should've been mortal? How many have we seen pick themselves up from being moments from death to peak effectiveness in seconds. How many have seen kill their way through marines like they weren't even there?
The wolves can be restrained, if they are ordered to.

What I was trying to say that if they were ordered to kill a primarch they wouldn't stop. They wouldn't have gloated in gullimans face.

Gulliman did survive barely. The book makes it clear that he was in bad shape. The armour he was wearing for ceremonial armour it's protection was probably a little better than flakk armour.

A single wolf wouldn't kill a primarch, however a pack working as one would.
Reaper45 is offline  
post #20 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-05-14, 07:04 AM
Senior Member
 
MEQinc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,212
Reputation: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
What I was trying to say that if they were ordered to kill a primarch they wouldn't stop. They wouldn't have gloated in gullimans face.
None of the Legions would stop doing what they were ordered to do. Some might hesitate in doing it or be reluctant to do it, but I'd say that varies more on a personal level than a Legion one. Certainly we have seen Space Wolves hesitate and show reluctance in the commission of their orders. Until this novel I wouldn't have thought an Alpha Legionnaire would have gloated, indeed I would've said the Alpha Legion would be one of the least likely to gloat.

Quote:
Gulliman did survive barely. The book makes it clear that he was in bad shape.
Guilliman also barely survived void exposure but was fine moments later. Night Haunter barely survived being stabbed twice but was fine moments later. The Lion was moments from death by brain smashing but was fine moments later. So on and so forth. Just because a Primarch has been heinously injured doesn't mean much.

Quote:
A single wolf wouldn't kill a primarch, however a pack working as one would.
Why? You still haven't given any reason for that. Nothing they can do cannot be done by others. There is nothing about the Wolves that makes them inherently more dangerous than others.

"Look into my eyes, and see your death."
"Let them hate, so long as they fear."
MEQinc is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Fluff

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome