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post #101 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Lost&Damned View Post
Id say, out of all the legions and primarchs, the modus operandi of the white scars best fits that of executioner and hunter.
If i was the Emperor and wanted to sanction Russ, i would send the Khan.
In terms of combat ability, I would generally agree.

However, the Khagan and his White Scars were an unknown quantity. It would have been a significant risk to trust them with such a monumental task. The Khagan (at least to his own Legion) quite openly railed against the shackles imposed on him by the Imperium and thought of the Emperor as a tyrant. In my opinion, the primary trait required for an executioner would have been utmost dedication and loyalty to the Emperor (something which the Khagan lacked).



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post #102 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 09:09 PM
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Konrad Curze
On a more serious note I think the Night Haunter with his NightLords would have been the perfect executioner, and the one called upon to sanction Russ. Keep in mind this is under the premise that Konrad Curze did not rebel, and that the Emperor/Malcador did not leave Konrad out to dry after authorizing his actions but not wanting to take responsibility for them when public favor did not approve.

If the Emperor would have openly backed Curze, I am confident Curze would have been one of the most loyal primarchs and do whatever the Emperor asked of him. Curze was already doing what ever the Emperor asked of him, he became the Emperor's public "bad guy" to draw the mass disapproval towards him and away from the Imperial government. Curze was already willing to do whatever his father asked of him, the Emperor just needed to show Curze the same loyalty that Curze showed him.

On another note for Curze to keep his legion "pure" and close to his ideals, he should have garrisoned a night lord council on each conquered planet. This council would be the "Night Haunter" of that planet and keep it in line, thus ensuring stable, loyal, and psychologically "pure" recruits.

Khan the Warhawk
Khan was willing to do whatever was necessary to ensure his, and his legions survival. However the Khan was openly free spirited, he did not approve of being commanded by a superior power. These psychological traits of being extremely self centered, survival based, and defiant to authority would make him a very poor choice as the Imperial executioner.

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post #103 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-10-14, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
In terms of combat ability, I would generally agree.

However, the Khagan and his White Scars were an unknown quantity. It would have been a significant risk to trust them with such a monumental task. The Khagan (at least to his own Legion) quite openly railed against the shackles imposed on him by the Imperium and thought of the Emperor as a tyrant. In my opinion, the primary trait required for an executioner would have been utmost dedication and loyalty to the Emperor (something which the Khagan lacked).
The psychological basis for which i determined that the Khan would be the best decision, is because he actually had little to no quarrel with either waging war against the Alpha legion, or the wolves, he was perfectly open to attacking and finishing any one of them off.

As for loyalty, While it may seem tenuous, i believe despite their differences (the Khan and the Emperor), the Khan stays true to his name as the war hawk, he will return to the hand that released him.
So long as there was a casus belli, i think he would have no problem killing Russ, that said, i doubt he would sanction for instance Magnus, unless Magnus did something truly horrific of which he had no doubts was done.

But yes, their general ethos of war seems to be the archetype of hunter and executioner.
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post #104 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-11-14, 03:49 AM
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The Night of the Wolf is an attempt by the wolves to end the mindless killing by the World Eaters. They were trying to help the World Eaters realise that their way of fighting was flawed,that the legion was broken and worthless but it wasn't too late to turn things around. Angron was too stupid to listen. Even Lorgar agrees with Russ.
I've argued against this view earlier in the thread. Basically, there's no evidence that Russ' plan going in was to teach a lesson and lots of evidence that it wasn't. Further the lesson taught isn't really accurate and has negligible import to Angron.

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Killing everyone will end a war. But the World Eaters wouldn't stop there. They'd find other people who weren't in the war to kill once their blood was up. Innocent people who had nothing to do with it became fair game.
When I said "killing everyone" I meant "every living soul on the planet", not simply soldiers. You are correct in saying that the World Eaters killed innocent people but you seem to be extrapolating an eagerness for war that didn't actually exist. In between war-zones the World Eaters were not constantly threatening the lives of innocents. They have repeatedly shown themselves to be able to co-operate with other Legions and humans, even inside a war-zone. On the other hand, the Wolves have also shown a disregard for innocent people, and have repeatedly condemned entire planets to death for unnecessary reasons.

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Russ's reluctance to kill a brother makes him a better choice than Angron. A man who doesn't want to kill and does so because it's his duty will stop when the mission is completed.
A man who doesn't want to kill will hesitate in preforming his duties. A man who doesn't want to kill will seek to avoid killing, even when ordered to do so. Russ hesitates, he attempts to circumvent his orders. How is this model behaviour for an executioner.

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You're missing my point.

There wasn't some physically quantifiable difference between the Spartans and other Greeks. Well, between the Spartans and some bush-league Polis whose hoplites only got together a couple of times a year to drill, sure. But against their primary enemies before the League - the Argives, the Arcadians, the Tegeans? Or their latter enemies in the Athenians and the Thebans? The only meaningful difference was psychology.
I understand your point. I know there was a meaningful difference in the psychology of the Spartans and that this is one of the things that helped contribute to their success. My point is that there isn't a meaningful difference in the psychology of the Astartes Legions. If you want to use historical examples, rather than comparing it to a Spartan vs. Arcadian fight compare it to a Spartan vs. Roman fight. Both Spartan and Roman soldiers are of roughly equal physical ability and they are both of roughly equal psychological motivation. The Romans won, not because they were physically superior or because they were psychologically superior but because they were better equipped to win (both in terms of tactics and equipment).

To further look at the Romans. As the legions expanded into new frontiers and faced new foes, and suffered new defeats, they improved themselves by adapting their technology, not improving their psychology.

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Where that trait is concerned, we have verifiable evidence that the Legions are not the same. Neither the Iron Warriors nor the Night Lords possess the same esprit de corps and comraderie as, say, the Ultramarines. The Word Bearers were more loyal down to their DNA. Those are just a couple of examples, off the top of my head.
We have evidence that they are different but we don't have evidence that one or another is superior. The Night Lords are not less motivated because they aren't as friendly. The Word Bearers aren't more motivated because they are engineered to obey. I'm not saying that the psychology of the Wolves is identical to every other Legion, that's obviously not the case. I'm disputing the idea that their psychology is somehow vastly superior to the others. There is a difference between different and better, the Legions are different, I haven't seen anything to suggest that some are better (as in universally, baring obvious specializations).

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It's hardly impossible. We have proof that this was possible just on the basis of a Primarch's training programs. We also have proof that the Emperor could tamper them to make this happen.
We do? Where?

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For instance, we know full well that Horus was able to sway the supple process to ensure that his Legions were the best equipped (e.g., Mk IV Power Armour) prior to the Heresy kicking off. Is there even a hint of this being done for the Executioners? Even if there was, I'd be curious if it adds up to even a fraction of the heavy emphasis on the Wolves.
There definitely isn't any indication that special equipment was given to the Wolves. That's basically my point. If the Emperor had intended the Wolves to be the executioners then he would've given them special equipment, as the benefits of doing so should be obvious. No attempt is ever made (logically it would've been done well before the Heresy developed anyway).

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To begin with, it assumes that the characters who express incredulity at the idea of Astartes fighting Astartes had knowledge of the Sanctions and how they were carried out.
We know that the Primarchs at least knew what happened. Those same Primarchs are (some of) the ones expressing doubt.

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Beyond that, it depends on the idea that this storyline was completely mapped out from the very get go. You're assuming that Abnett or McNeil (or whoever it was) foresaw the extent of the "Executioners" plot angle when they wrote about how unfeasible Legion versus Legion warfare was. I could just as easily argue that, at the time, it was more important for the authors to play up the shock factor of Legion fighting Legion than to be completely honest about the events that preceded the Heresy.
I'm not assuming that authors would have known about the Executioners before they became a thing. I would assume that Abnett knew what others had already written when he created the Executioners angle, that seems pretty logical to me. But even that doesn't matter. My argument is based entirely on the fluff as presented. In universe it has been established that the idea of inter-Astartes violence is shocking. Why they decided that inter-Astartes violence is shocking is irrelevant.

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post #105 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-11-14, 06:02 AM
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[quote=MEQinc;1502729I understand your point. I know there was a meaningful difference in the psychology of the Spartans and that this is one of the things that helped contribute to their success. My point is that there isn't a meaningful difference in the psychology of the Astartes Legions. If you want to use historical examples, rather than comparing it to a Spartan vs. Arcadian fight compare it to a Spartan vs. Roman fight. Both Spartan and Roman soldiers are of roughly equal physical ability and they are both of roughly equal psychological motivation. The Romans won, not because they were physically superior or because they were psychologically superior but because they were better equipped to win (both in terms of tactics and equipment).[/quote]
This is neither here nor there, but the Romans never fought the Spartans. The Romans fought a number of battles against the Epirotes, the Macedonians, and various other Hellenistic-era monarchs. By the time they began to involve themselves in the politics of the various Greeks, though, the Spartans were already a spent force.

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To further look at the Romans. As the legions expanded into new frontiers and faced new foes, and suffered new defeats, they improved themselves by adapting their technology, not improving their psychology.
Again, neither here nor there. I don't want to get terribly off-topic, but while Roman tactics and technology greatly improved over the course of several centuries, the waning of their warrior cult and their sense of civic duty directly led to their empire's downfall.

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We have evidence that they are different but we don't have evidence that one or another is superior.
Sure we do. That is, unless you think that a propensity to abandon your comrades rather than fight as a cohesive force is a positive.

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The Word Bearers aren't more motivated because they are engineered to obey.
Actually, that's precisely the implication of The First Heretic.

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We do? Where?
See above. Further evidence of the Emperor's tampering to "customize" his Legions for specific duties is in Deliverance Lost. Where the Primarchs are concerned, you need only see the effects their leadership had.

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I'm not saying that the psychology of the Wolves is identical to every other Legion, that's obviously not the case. I'm disputing the idea that their psychology is somehow vastly superior to the others. There is a difference between different and better, the Legions are different, I haven't seen anything to suggest that some are better (as in universally, baring obvious specializations).
I'm not saying that their psychology is always better, nor am I trying to qualify by how much it is. What I'm positing is that there are obvious differences in the psychology and motivations of various Legions, and that this is qualified to be the case for the Space Wolves. I love a debate as much as the next guy, but there's no denying that the Space Wolves express pragmatism at worst and eagerness at best regarding a topic (intra-Legionary violence and sanctions). By contrast, Space Marines from other Legions express incredulity and disbelief over the same thing.

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There definitely isn't any indication that special equipment was given to the Wolves. That's basically my point. If the Emperor had intended the Wolves to be the executioners then he would've given them special equipment, as the benefits of doing so should be obvious. No attempt is ever made (logically it would've been done well before the Heresy developed anyway).
That's up for debate. Carrying out a sanction on a Primarch and his Legion was never going to be something the Emperor expected to happen. Complicating matters more, equipping a Legion for intra-Legionary conflict was always going to be tricky with the Legiones Astartes being on constant deployment in ever-growing distances from the Imperium's centers of power.

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We know that the Primarchs at least knew what happened. Those same Primarchs are (some of) the ones expressing doubt.
I'm specifically referring to Space Marines, not Primarchs. With the exception of the Word Bearers in The First Heretic and the Space Wolves, the very mention of intra-Legionary conflict provokes shock. Even the Alpha Legion thought it was preposterous.

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My argument is based entirely on the fluff as presented. In universe it has been established that the idea of inter-Astartes violence is shocking. Why they decided that inter-Astartes violence is shocking is irrelevant.
Shocking for practically every Legion except the two I mentioned above.
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post #106 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-11-14, 07:39 AM
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This is neither here nor there, but the Romans never fought the Spartans.
Wow, that was an epic brain fart. My bad.

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Again, neither here nor there. I don't want to get terribly off-topic, but while Roman tactics and technology greatly improved over the course of several centuries, the waning of their warrior cult and their sense of civic duty directly led to their empire's downfall.
Right and the creation of that warrior cult had a huge part in their early success. But once they'd established it they didn't improve it to face new threats. Likely because they realized it'd be near impossible to do so.

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Sure we do. That is, unless you think that a propensity to abandon your comrades rather than fight as a cohesive force is a positive.
Is that a Night Lords 'cowardice' or a World Eaters 'recklessness' point?

The Night Lords don't really show 'cowardice' except in patently unwinnable scenarios, in which case it is more survival instinct than disunity.

The World Eaters recklessness on the other hand allows them to arguably defeat to the Space Wolves, precisely because they are willing to 'abandon' their comrades.

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Actually, that's precisely the implication of The First Heretic.
Really? I never got the impression that the Word Bearers were more highly motivated than other Legions, at least pre-sanction.

Also, wouldn't that suggest that the Word Bearers should be the executioners?

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See above. Further evidence of the Emperor's tampering to "customize" his Legions for specific duties is in Deliverance Lost. Where the Primarchs are concerned, you need only see the effects their leadership had.
Again, I'm not questioning that the Legions were customized, just whether those customizations made one force better than another. Surely the Emperor would not have intentionally handicapped some of his warriors?

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I'm not saying that their psychology is always better, nor am I trying to qualify by how much it is. What I'm positing is that there are obvious differences in the psychology and motivations of various Legions, and that this is qualified to be the case for the Space Wolves. I love a debate as much as the next guy, but there's no denying that the Space Wolves express pragmatism at worst and eagerness at best regarding a topic (intra-Legionary violence and sanctions). By contrast, Space Marines from other Legions express incredulity and disbelief over the same thing.
World Eaters, Night Lords and various other Legions express pragmatism and/or eagerness at the thought of intra-Legion violence as well. I'm not denying that the Wolves also express it. I'm questioning whether this makes them better at fighting Marines in the long term.

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That's up for debate. Carrying out a sanction on a Primarch and his Legion was never going to be something the Emperor expected to happen.
If the Emperor designed Executioners then surely he would only have done so because he believed an executioner would be handy to have around.

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Complicating matters more, equipping a Legion for intra-Legionary conflict was always going to be tricky with the Legiones Astartes being on constant deployment in ever-growing distances from the Imperium's centers of power.
One of many problems with using your executioner as a regular soldier. So why did the Emperor do it?

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I'm specifically referring to Space Marines, not Primarchs. With the exception of the Word Bearers in The First Heretic and the Space Wolves, the very mention of intra-Legionary conflict provokes shock. Even the Alpha Legion thought it was preposterous.
So? My point was that, thanks to the disbelief of the Primarchs, we can be quite sure that intra-Astartes violence had not been part of the fates that befell the lost Legions.

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post #107 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-11-14, 09:24 AM
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[quote=MEQinc;1502865 Right and the creation of that warrior cult had a huge part in their early success. But once they'd established it they didn't improve it to face new threats. Likely because they realized it'd be near impossible to do so.[/quote]
... That's simply not true, man.

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Is that a Night Lords 'cowardice' or a World Eaters 'recklessness' point?

The Night Lords don't really show 'cowardice' except in patently unwinnable scenarios, in which case it is more survival instinct than disunity.
Call it whatever you want. The point is, they showed a lack of discipline, cohesion, and loyalty that was substandard to that of other Legions.

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The World Eaters recklessness on the other hand allows them to arguably defeat to the Space Wolves, precisely because they are willing to 'abandon' their comrades.
Even the author of that particular story specifically disagrees with this assertion, though.

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Really? I never got the impression that the Word Bearers were more highly motivated than other Legions, at least pre-sanction.
Down to their DNA, man.

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Also, wouldn't that suggest that the Word Bearers should be the executioners?
No, not the least of which reasons is that the Word Bearers themselves don't even suggest it. At best, there is a hint that they may have been involved in some way in one of the sanctions. It's nothing compared to what we see for the Wolves.

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Again, I'm not questioning that the Legions were customized, just whether those customizations made one force better than another. Surely the Emperor would not have intentionally handicapped some of his warriors?
A couple of things on this:

1. Based on Deliverance Lost, it would appear that this was the case. See how the genetic code of the Iron Warriors was manipulated, for instance.

2. Different Legions were recruited from different pools of the Terran population. The Night Lords, for instance, were drawn from the worst prisons available. By contrast, the Emperor's Children drew from the scions of educated warrior aristocracy.

I think it's quite clear that the Emperor at a minimum wanted different results from those two different Legions. Depending on the means and controls one uses to attain certain results, handicaps may be inevitable.

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World Eaters, Night Lords and various other Legions express pragmatism and/or eagerness at the thought of intra-Legion violence as well. I'm not denying that the Wolves also express it. I'm questioning whether this makes them better at fighting Marines in the long term.
It can, and history shows that this is the case. What qualifies the Space Wolves as better candidates for that role than the World Eaters and Night Lords is their discipline and loyalty. The World Eaters lack the former; the Night Lords lack the latter.

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If the Emperor designed Executioners then surely he would only have done so because he believed an executioner would be handy to have around.
I wasn't denying that. I was indicating factors that would make specialist equipment issue not a priority. At least, not as high a priority as maintaining full combat readiness for the Great Crusade.

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One of many problems with using your executioner as a regular soldier. So why did the Emperor do it?
A very good question! My guess is that it was a decision he made based on his not-perfect precognition. As in, he foresaw the need for one, if not the actual events that would drive the need.

Beyond that, there might be a more literary explanation for this. The idea that there is a sort of "honour" in "taking care of our own" is somewhat prevalent in different types of fiction - military, police, etc. The Emperor might have understood that the Legiones Astartes would accept a sanction from one of their own as opposed to outsiders doing the deed. That's purely conjecture on my part, though!

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So? My point was that, thanks to the disbelief of the Primarchs, we can be quite sure that intra-Astartes violence had not been part of the fates that befell the lost Legions.
Space Marines expressed disbelief, and then not universally. Primarchs merely acknowledge the tragic fate of their brothers and/or remind each other not to go into detail. The closest Primarchs come to expressing similar disbelief is when they are first told that Horus has rebelled.
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post #108 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-11-14, 10:59 PM
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Call it whatever you want. The point is, they showed a lack of discipline, cohesion, and loyalty that was substandard to that of other Legions.
I don't think we can say that with certainty. The Night Lords show disunity in the face of something no other Legion really experiences. We simply don't know how other Legions would react.

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Even the author of that particular story specifically disagrees with this assertion, though.
He calls it a draw as well. I was also more going with a 'what if they didn't stop' scenario, in which case I think the World Eaters would have wonwon

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Down to their DNA, man.
They are more loyal down to their DNA, that doesn't mean they are more motivated. Indeed they seem less motivated than other Legions in that they move slower, and are specifically punished for this failure.

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No, not the least of which reasons is that the Word Bearers themselves don't even suggest it.
That really doesn't matter. This isn't about who thinks they are the best executioners it about who is.

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1. Based on Deliverance Lost, it would appear that this was the case. See how the genetic code of the Iron Warriors was manipulated, for instance.
I don't remember what was suggested about the Iron Warriors, can you provide a quote?

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I think it's quite clear that the Emperor at a minimum wanted different results from those two different Legions. Depending on the means and controls one uses to attain certain results, handicaps may be inevitable.
It seems clear that the Emperor wanted the Legions to function in different manners. Surely he would want those Legions to function to the highest possible standards in those manners. Surely he would not want a Legion to operate in a manner that was unnecessary or probably worse than the way another Legion operated. Therefore it seems only logical that the Emperor would not handicap (ie. Design an overall weakness in) any of the Legions.

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It can, and history shows that this is the case.
No it doesn't. The Wolves record in intra-Legion conflict is mediocre at best. They show no obvious superiority over even those Legions that most strongly express shock.

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What qualifies the Space Wolves as better candidates for that role than the World Eaters and Night Lords is their discipline and loyalty. The World Eaters lack the former; the Night Lords lack the latter.
1) I would question the superiority of the Wolves discipline over that of the World Eaters. The Wolves discipline cracks first in the Night of the Wolf and they also show a lack of discipline in attacking the Sons on Shrike.
2) I would question the supposed lack of loyalty of the Night Lords. Until they are betrayed the Night Lords never do anything that suggests disobedience to the Emperor. Unlike the Wolves, who take it upon themselves to sanction Angron.

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A very good question! My guess is that it was a decision he made based on his not-perfect precognition. As in, he foresaw the need for one, if not the actual events that would drive the need.
But surely in such a situation the best bet would be to hold the Executioners in reserve. Thus allowing them to be deployed where ever they where needed quickly and eliminating the possibility of casualties rendering them unusable.

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Beyond that, there might be a more literary explanation for this. The idea that there is a sort of "honour" in "taking care of our own" is somewhat prevalent in different types of fiction - military, police, etc. The Emperor might have understood that the Legiones Astartes would accept a sanction from one of their own as opposed to outsiders doing the deed. That's purely conjecture on my part, though!
We have been shown that every single time a Legion was sanctioned they didn't accept it.

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post #109 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-11-14, 11:29 PM
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I don't think we can say that with certainty. The Night Lords show disunity in the face of something no other Legion really experiences. We simply don't know how other Legions would react.
Yes, we do. We've seen the Ultramarines react far better in a far worse situation: see Know No Fear and Prince of Crows. The former is far worse than the latter.

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He calls it a draw as well. I was also more going with a 'what if they didn't stop' scenario, in which case I think the World Eaters would have wonwon
Based on what? They were about to lose their Primarch, and Betrayer points out, more than once, that the mode of war the World Eaters have chosen is inefficient. It costs them unnecessary casualties. That's all well and good if you have Titans and armour backing your assault on outnumbered Astartes and normal humans... not so much when you're fighting another Legion on even ground!

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They are more loyal down to their DNA, that doesn't mean they are more motivated. Indeed they seem less motivated than other Legions in that they move slower, and are specifically punished for this failure.
They don't "move slower" on account of being less motivated; they move slower precisely because of that sense of loyalty. Their master's priority is to make worlds super-compliant in a religious fashion, and his men obey.

And I'm sorry, but I have to say this. We're getting to the point where you're twisting words and literary themes in order to make a point. To do so while ignoring the flat-out stated fact that genetic manipulation achieved those results in a Legion - and others, in other Legions as well - is somewhat irritating. If we're going to agree to disagree, so be it.

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That really doesn't matter. This isn't about who thinks they are the best executioners it about who is.
How does it not matter that they themselves don't mention being Executioners? Especially when another Legion flat-out claims it?

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I don't remember what was suggested about the Iron Warriors, can you provide a quote?
Sure.

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“Take this one, sample four, as an indicator,’ said the genetor majoris. ‘We have managed to identify at least six unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others. In the same sample, there is a dearth of certain enhanced genes that, in our estimation, boost the cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nociceptors and proprioceptory function. The deficiency seems to be deliberate. In subject six there is a whole suite of genetic encoding derived from a non-human source, possibly canine. In subject twenty, a whole suite of growth boosting augmentations is absent. In all, we have catalogued seven hundred and eighty-three variations between the samples. This leaves the common, core material, the primarch essence for want of a better term, exceptionally small compared to what I expected.”

Excerpt From: Gav Thorpe. “Deliverance Lost.” iBooks.
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It seems clear that the Emperor wanted the Legions to function in different manners. Surely he would want those Legions to function to the highest possible standards in those manners. Surely he would not want a Legion to operate in a manner that was unnecessary or probably worse than the way another Legion operated. Therefore it seems only logical that the Emperor would not handicap (ie. Design an overall weakness in) any of the Legions.
That's a valid premise, but intent doesn't always translate to results. And you're not going to get the same results recruiting from a hell-hole of a prison as you will from aristocratic courts.

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No it doesn't. The Wolves record in intra-Legion conflict is mediocre at best. They show no obvious superiority over even those Legions that most strongly express shock.
I'm talking about our real world history. Where the Great Crusade is concerned, it's strongly implied that you're wrong. The Space Wolves are the implied executioners, which means they achieved at least some success against other Legions and their Primarchs. Their portrayal in the Night of the Wolves is also positive.

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1) I would question the superiority of the Wolves discipline over that of the World Eaters. The Wolves discipline cracks first in the Night of the Wolf and they also show a lack of discipline in attacking the Sons on Shrike.
By all means, cite what you feel is relevant.

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2) I would question the supposed lack of loyalty of the Night Lords. Until they are betrayed the Night Lords never do anything that suggests disobedience to the Emperor. Unlike the Wolves, who take it upon themselves to sanction Angron.
I'm talking about the lack of loyalty they show to themselves.

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But surely in such a situation the best bet would be to hold the Executioners in reserve. Thus allowing them to be deployed where ever they where needed quickly and eliminating the possibility of casualties rendering them unusable.
This makes no sense. Sanction is a contingency. The Great Crusade is the status quo.

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We have been shown that every single time a Legion was sanctioned they didn't accept it.
I'm not talking about the sanctioned Legions accepting it. I'm talking about the reaction of the rest of the Legions to a sanction. I'm proposing that they would not feel as outraged by another Legion "taking care of their cousins" (or what have you) as opposed to, say, the Custodes or some other organization doing so. But again, that's conjecture on my part.
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post #110 of 125 (permalink) Old 01-12-14, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
Yes, we do. We've seen the Ultramarines react far better in a far worse situation: see Know No Fear and Prince of Crows. The former is far worse than the latter.
Not really. On Tsagalua an entire Legion appears out of nowhere to ambush a grounded and unprepared one. On Calth part of a Legion suddenly betrays part of another. The Night Lords face a threat to the very existance, the Ultramarines 'merely' face one to their strength. The Ultramarines are on their home turf and well prepared to defend it, the Night Lords aren't either. Indeed defending Tsalgua goes against their battle doctrine.


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Based on what?
That Angron had beaten and would kill Russ. That Angron death is not certain. That Russ' death would devistate the Wolves moral. That Angron's death would have no effect on the World Eaters. And that the World Eaters were causing more casualties then they were receiving.

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They don't "move slower" on account of being less motivated; they move slower precisely because of that sense of loyalty. Their master's priority is to make worlds super-compliant in a religious fashion, and his men obey.
So, the Word Bearers are motivated to behave differently than the other Legions. Is that motivation greater? Are they more motivated to make worlds super-compliant through religion than the Ultramarines are to make the super-compliant through other means? Their loyalty makes them more likely to do things they don't necessarily agree with, but it doesn't mean they will be more driven to do those things.

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And I'm sorry, but I have to say this. We're getting to the point where you're twisting words and literary themes in order to make a point. To do so while ignoring the flat-out stated fact that genetic manipulation achieved those results in a Legion - and others, in other Legions as well - is somewhat irritating.
1) You're twisting words and themes just as much as I am.
2)Its not flat-out stated that the Wolves are superior to the other Legions. That goes against the themes of all the Legions, as well as many of the other themes of the Great Crusade.

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If we're going to agree to disagree, so be it.
If that's how you want to leave it, that's fine with me.

I won't agree to let various Legions be slandered though.

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How does it not matter that they themselves don't mention being Executioners? Especially when another Legion flat-out claims it?
Because the fact that the Wolves say they're the Executioners a) doesn't actually make it so and b) doesn't make them good at it.


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Sure.
Thanks.

That's what I thought I remembered. The Iron Warriors are specualted to feel less pain then other Legions. I'm unclear on why you think that's a bad thing, or otherwise represents an intentional weakening of the Legion.

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That's a valid premise, but intent doesn't always translate to results.
No but intent gives a baseline for what the intended results are. The intended result was for the Legions to be differnet but equal, it then becomes your responsibility to show that some Legions are superior to others across the board. I don't feel you've done that.

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I'm talking about our real world history.
Where in real world history do you see evidence that expressing less shock at the nature of a foe leads to future long-term success against that foe?

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Where the Great Crusade is concerned, it's strongly implied that you're wrong. The Space Wolves are the implied executioners, which means they achieved at least some success against other Legions and their Primarchs.
I'm not going off implication, I'm going off what we are directly shown. We are directly shown that the Wolves are not superior to the World Eaters. While they enjoy some success against the Sons the deck is stacked heavily in their favour and removing just some of those benefits (several of which were brought about by circumstances the Wolves had no control over) makes their victory far from certain. Further, they fail to eliminate the Sons, kill Magnus or bring him in for judgment.

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By all means, cite what you feel is relevant.
Don't have my books so this is all from memory.
1) Russ and Angron are talking. Russ looses control and strikes Angron, violence (predictably) ensues.
2) The Wolves, unnecessarily and unprovoked, open fire on members of a brother Legion.
Both these events show a lack of discipline amongst the Wolves, they fall to emotion far to easily,

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I'm talking about the lack of loyalty they show to themselves.
Oh. So you mean cohesion then?

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This makes no sense. Sanction is a contingency. The Great Crusade is the status quo.
Sanction is an inevitable contingency, it makes sense to plan for that contingency. Deploying the Wolves to the Crusade is the exact opposite of preparing for that contingency. Deploying the Executioners to front-line duty is not a nessecity for the Crusade, after all the Custodes are not a front-line force.


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I'm not talking about the sanctioned Legions accepting it. I'm talking about the reaction of the rest of the Legions to a sanction. I'm proposing that they would not feel as outraged by another Legion "taking care of their cousins" (or what have you) as opposed to, say, the Custodes or some other organization doing so. But again, that's conjecture on my part.
Ah, fair enough. Sounds like a good idea.

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"Let them hate, so long as they fear."
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