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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-01-14, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
The Primarchs bickered as brothers and were fiercely competitive (some were even openly hostile to one another), even the more stable ones such as Sanguinius (Horus manipulated dispatches from the Blood Angels' and World Eaters' campaigns to make sure they reached each other to promote rivalry between the two similar Legions). I don't think a council of Primarchs would have worked without the authority of the Emperor, or a proxy, as part of the system.

I think, with the Emperor completely removed from Imperial politics as he was during the webway project, and with Malcador reigning as regent of Terra, the Great Crusade needed an overall leader to direct it.
I agree with this, however, as i believe was highlighted in the audiobook "The sigillite" the Emperor has by far favoured the idea that he himself would one day step down and allow mankind to steer itself, i feel this idea of decentralizing power to be something he had vehemently hoped to acheive, i would have expected that his leave to create the webway would be the first of his steps into relinquishing power, and so instead of simply setting up another leader, allowed greater autonomy.

After all who cares for Angrons rages and the Night haunters sadism when they coul just be thrown at alien civilizations, where casualties dont matter.
There are enough level headed primarchs to balance the less mercurial ones.
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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-01-14, 03:38 PM
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Horus was the first to be found but he's not the first legion. The lion holds that honor. It's heavily implied that the reason why he got so much respect is that the dark angels were privy to technology no one else had.

In terms of who could be a leader anyone including angron is a king.
That's not really the point I was trying to make. My point is that having the Lion only discovered 50 years before the Heresy doesn't mesh at all with the current timeline, especially with the now revealed primarch discovery order.

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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-01-14, 04:20 PM Thread Starter
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I highly doubt the whole Lion being found only 50 years before the heresy thing will still be canon.
It's hardly the most glaring issue with the timeline Laurie Goulding presented.

That having been said, I have a far bigger issue with the fact that it took a decade to find the last nine primarchs and delete one of them. By contrast, the Lion racking up accolades so fast would have been part and parcel of being one of four or five primarchs with a balanced approach to warfare and an absence of psychosis, berserker implants, mutation, illegal activities, etc.

My guess is that it took short periods of time for Guilliman to make a name for himself as well, and that Ultramar wasn't a prerequisite for that.

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It's heavily implied that the reason why he got so much respect is that the dark angels were privy to technology no one else had.
Where did you get that impression?

EDIT: I know you are referring to The Unremembered Empire, but I'm curious about what part of the novel you're citing.

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The reaction of the iron hands, viewing humanity as weak had its basis in ferrus manus' death.
See "Feat of Iron". Ferrus Manus' treatment of the Imperial Army auxiliaries assigned to his Legion is deplorable. They are never seen as anything more than an irritant and a hindrance until the "moral lesson" at the end of the novella.

CotE,

Very good analysis!
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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-01-14, 04:28 PM
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I

EDIT: I know you are referring to The Unremembered Empire, but I'm curious about what part of the novel you're citing.


I remember in a codex, the fact that the Dark angels were the first legion meant they were the first to mobilize, they were given weaponry from the dark age of technology and were outfitted with the cream of teh crop, even in relation to other legions.
i'll try and find the exact quote and book i got it from when i have more time.
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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-01-14, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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I remember that exact point being made in the novel I mentioned, but not in a Codex. In neither case was that cited as a reason for the Dark Angels earning acclaim, though.

If you do find that quote, though, let me know. I don't mind eating crow if it means I get to learn something new!
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post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-01-14, 05:15 PM
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Do remember that a Legion can have been active for a long time before their primarch was found, whom then waltzes in to harvest all the acclaim for the deeds done by his gene-sons.
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post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-01-14, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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I don't think we should assume that absent any supporting evidence, though.
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post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-01-14, 06:13 PM
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It's hardly the most glaring issue with the timeline Laurie Goulding presented.
But it kind of is a really big one now IMO. Part of the reason Monarchia and the Emperor's censure made such a big impact on Lorgar is because he had been crusading in that manner for over a century. And Monarchia happened roughly 40 years before the Heresy. Meaning Lorgar himself had to have been around for over 90 years before the Lion was found. Which we now know is impossible seeing as the Lion was found before Lorgar.

On to Horus though, it seems he had rivals in Dorn, Guilliman and the Lion, in terms of skill as a military commander. But like others have noted, compared to those 3 he was far more charismatic and enjoyed far better relationships with the other primarchs than they did. Guilliman himself notes in Know No Fear, I think, that there are very few primarchs he truly considered friends. We know how the Lion is in terms of keeping secrets and trusting others, so I am inclined to think many primarchs were mistrustful of him, even if they did respect him (like Guilliman did). Dorn I think would be very similar to Guilliman in this regard. Kind of aloof, and slow to make friends with the other primarchs. So from that point of view Horus was a better overall choice to take on military command of the GC. None of the others who could be considered his peers in terms of military or logistics could compete with him in terms of his ability to handle his brothers. So as a military leader (including handling potentially difficult subordinates), he really was the most well-rounded amongst the primarchs.

In terms of singular combat, I also would rank Horus high up there. If we consider that Corax, who considers himself among the best fighters of the primarchs (confident enough in his own abilities that he thought he could kill both Lorgar and Curze at the same time), thought only Horus and Sanguinius stood a shot at beating Angron (where he was positive he would fail), we can put Horus up there. This is also reinforced in Betrayer where Lorgar says, in a kind of reverse scenario, that only Angron or Horus could stand against a bloodlusted Sanguinius. So in terms of combat (in general, barring having favouring circumstances) I'd probably put Horus at the top tier there, along with Angron and Sanguinius.

On a random note, Ferrus Manus seems to be more competent than most in terms of military leadership too, if The Unremembered Empire is anything to go by. Guilliman listed him along with the likes of Dorn and himself and the Lion as potential rivals for the Warmaster spot, when he explained to the Lion that Horus cared the most about besting him for the spot above any others. And later when pondering what to do with the shattered legions, he immediately thinks to put the Iron Hands remnants as the base command structure, and then worries if the other legions would take orders from them. And Guilliman would only be considering that if he viewed the Iron Hands as the best choice to lead the remnants. But I am wandering off topic now... sorry...

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

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Last edited by Chompy Bits; 01-01-14 at 06:33 PM.
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post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-01-14, 07:42 PM
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can't it be argued that Macharius was a greater commander and had a greater military mind then Horus?
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post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-01-14, 08:53 PM
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can't it be argued that Macharius was a greater commander and had a greater military mind then Horus?
No, no it can't. Alexander the Great in space conquered about a thousand worlds or so and left them with next to no leadership base; Horus was noted to have led the combined might of the legions astartes multiple times as they reclaimed tens or hundreds of thousands of human worlds (most of which were left with some form of leadership.)

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