List of new Primarch fights/duels from the Heresy series so far (SPOILERS) - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-03-14, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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Well Corax indisputably beat Lorgar, but Curze intervened to save Lorgar. Can't really count Curze and Corax even fighting, Corax took one look at the situation and took off.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-07-14, 06:47 AM
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That Alpharius + Rowboat fight has been vetoed - it's considered ignored because not only are the AL tricksy, but in the HH:Extermination book, it states the previous origin/discovery story of Alpharius presented within the same Index Astartes article to be a lie.
Nah son, he dead, or at least one of them is. I read Hunt for Voldorious, Alphy would be ashamed!

ON SUBJECT: Can someone maybe list what books these fights took place as well? I am interested in a couple, and I might actually buy a book just to read about these encounters.
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-07-14, 06:53 AM
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Nah son, he dead, or at least one of them is. I read Hunt for Voldorious, Alphy would be ashamed!
No, its been discounted. Ultramarines have no record of the fight, and the one spreading the story was found out to be an Alpha Legion spy.

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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-07-14, 07:18 AM
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http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion

^ this says he dead.

I like to think he is dead, which also explains the fragmenting and the poor post-heresy performance, Not posting on this again, it's off topic, and if you feel the need to prove me wrong you can always PM me.

ON SUBJECT AGAIN: Can we also maybe put up a spoilers a say who got the "better" or say if it was a "draw" for each fight?

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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-07-14, 08:35 AM Thread Starter
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Just because the 40k wiki says he's dead, does mean he is in anyway at all.
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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-07-14, 12:20 PM
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Don't trust the wiki. If there's a site to "trust" it's the Lexicanum, which provides a more reasoned answer - but even then, it's not completely proved that he's "dead".

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I like to think he is dead, which also explains the fragmenting and the poor post-heresy performance, Not posting on this again, it's off topic, and if you feel the need to prove me wrong you can always PM me.
The idiocy of the writers trying to put into writing for 12 year olds the battle tactics of a paragon of superhuman intelligence who is notoriously tricksy is apparent. 40K writers aren't exactly the best writers around in any case (Andy Hoare is right up there as a former game "developer" (I say that loosely) turned "writer" (again, loosely)). You were the one who cared to bring it up; rather than leaving "false" information around for other people to read to save your blushes, I'd rather just leave it written down in public forum that Eskrador was not a proven fight between any Primarch. I don't have my Index Astartes collection to hand, but long story short - anything that has been written down in that IA article has been largely ignored by the Horus Heresy writers at large - right down to the colour schemes of the traitor legions; Sons of Horus and Alpha Legion notably. Throw into the history of the Alpha Legion presented in Alpha Legion which is alluded to, but dismissed as being a lie in the HH:Books, and you can see where we're going with this train of thought.

Honestly? Personally? I'd love to see the tricksiness of the AL come unstuck, and, he was killed, but if I'm remembering the Eskrador conflict completely, Guilliman used tactics that "were not codex" - Alpharius is so tricksy he wouldn't let that happen - this is the guy who gave entire sectors of loyalist planets (while he was still "loyalist") cancer to prevent an alien parasite race from returning.

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ON SUBJECT AGAIN: Can we also maybe put up a spoilers a say who got the "better" or say if it was a "draw" for each fight?
That isn't so much a list, more of a complete discussion over it. You'll lead to people saying Mortarion vs Khan saying that Mortarion was "winning" - despite the Khan holding his own and not being able to utilise his main tactics of rapid assault.

Then you also involve the different "power levels" of the writers - Gav Thorpe had his Rowboat nearly killed by an Alpha Legion Kill Team of 10 men, while Curze was only able to kill 1 Space Wolf despite being strong enough to near enough effortlessly kill 3 Primarchs - and yet we've seen ADB's Erebus take blasts from a Titan Weapon, and his Angron throw down a titan after is stomped on him; and lets not even get into Graham McNeils level of whimsy where Magnus demolished (Warlord class?) titans and with a single shout Fulgrim liquidised the crew of another?

Any list of "win/loss" is going to be full of such contradictions in the fluff, making it impossible to state who won where, except in the event of Sanguinius, Curze and Ferrus Manus.



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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-07-14, 11:40 PM
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Emperorshand - Nid attack? The nids weren't encountered until Tyran were they?
Yes it is breifly mentioned in two novels, the recent Ciaphas Cain novel (in which the Magos Bioligicus metnions that once of her specimens is from the time of the "Heresy), as well as "The Path of the Eldar" bundle I recent bought which includes the "Path of the Outcast." Novel. In it there is a breif mention of a "Hive Fleet Ouroboros," which both the book and Lexicanum do state was destroyed when the Emporer lead a 12-day battle against the "Legion of Ouroboros." To this day it is the earliest Hive Fleet mention that I've heard of, and honestly shows that it as not just the Forces of Chaos that the Imperium has to worry about.

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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-10-14, 10:56 AM
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I think Omegon will end up fighting Alpharius, one killing the other, who that will be is up to us maybe?

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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-10-14, 01:20 PM
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Yes it is breifly mentioned in two novels, the recent Ciaphas Cain novel (in which the Magos Bioligicus metnions that once of her specimens is from the time of the "Heresy), as well as "The Path of the Eldar" bundle I recent bought which includes the "Path of the Outcast." Novel. In it there is a breif mention of a "Hive Fleet Ouroboros," which both the book and Lexicanum do state was destroyed when the Emporer lead a 12-day battle against the "Legion of Ouroboros." To this day it is the earliest Hive Fleet mention that I've heard of, and honestly shows that it as not just the Forces of Chaos that the Imperium has to worry about.

Everyone vs Cruze!!!
That's interesting. Dug out the Lexicanum, and it's briefly mentioned in there. One thing that is always spoken of is how time flows oddly in the warp, but it always travels onwards - i.e a ship can enter the warp, and a thousand years pass, but to them, only a week has done so, or conversely, a week passes outside, but a thousand years inside the warp passes. This Hive Fleet Ouroboros is one occasion where time actually flows backwards - i.e X years pass in "real time", but they travel back in time through the warp. According to the 5th edition dex, this is disproved due to lack of Warp Travel, but accidentally getting swallowed into the Eye of Terror or some other warp storm, and the nature (or rather, lack of) of the warp means that it can still happen.

Can you provide the exact quote for the Path of the Outcast? The 4th Edition Dex quote is apparently something that's written by a Cardinal looking to extoll the virtues of his planet; the first recorded history of the planet etc, while Sandy Mitchell's grasp of 40K is... rather fast and loose. And being fair, Gav Thorpe... eh. To know the quality of writing that he produces within the 30K "canon", you're looking at Deliverance Lost type quality, while Soulforge was pretty terrible (but to be expected of the 30K LE books, with the exception of Aurelian).

No offence, but I think it would fuck with the Heresy era too much to simply have another "face" show up just because it ties in with 40K. Look at the hate that Honsou has - only the major players within the Heresy and still active within 40K are given page time, and even that is fleeting; Abaddon, Kharn, Typhus, the only one with any real page time is Lucius, and that's because it's Graham McNeil, and Graham McNeil is about as capable with regard to creating greater-than-one-dimensional characters as a ripped crisp packet is as capable as being a condom, so he piggy backs off the pool of existing "talent" (and still makes them as dynamic as a cardboard cut out) such as Lucius, or his own existing characters, like Honsou. And he's pretty much universally disliked by it (I've yet to see anyone with any actual history with the game enjoy him name dropping - I'm awaiting his 40K UM novel that has "descended" Aeonid Thiel or ones who can trace their lineage back to Ventanus etc.

I don't mean to offend you either, when I mention that no-one actually cares about the Tyranids, either. Because they're your faceless BBEG that you use when you can't actually be arsed using a plot, so you copy Prometheus, Alien, or Aliens. We have enough of those with fliblidoobldoopop and teapot-canary-cowmen that are just randomly made up to have the legions destroy them to show exactly how powerful they are. It's the Heresy era. What we care about is the Legions butting heads. We all want the Emperor's big reveal - it's for this reason I think they've deliberately stayed away from Ullanor, and mentions of him have been small - even Prospero Burns, or A Thousand Sons, whichever one it was that had the Council of Nikaea didn't overuse the Emperor. At the end of the day, he's the Darth Vader, or Yoda. He's apparently this all powerful character, but you just want to see how good he is, and then when you get to see a little teaser in Episode 5, and finally the full battle in Episode 6, it's like holy fuck. That's what you want to see, not some nameless race which for all intents and purposes could be the tyranids getting facebeaten.



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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-10-14, 01:57 PM
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Maybe Ouroboros was a evolutionary experiment by the Hive Mind that found Warp Travel to dangerous and did not try to develope it further knowing it had all the time in the universe.

By what means does Genestealers travel? Since they can turn up lightyears ahead of the fleet and that without Narwhales.

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