The Arms Race that is Killing 40k - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Fluff Discuss GW background material here. All those bits in the Codex that aren't stat blocks or special rules. Post your custom character/chapter/army background in our Homebrew Fluff subforum!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-13, 01:29 AM
So be it.
 
JAMOB's Avatar
JAMOB's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Boston
Posts: 1,900
Reputation: 15
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loli View Post
Kiro I think this thread was aimed mostly at the fluff as opposed to tabletop :-P
Weirdly enough, he took it where I thought it was going. Maybe I haven't read enough fluff

Kiro - I feel you man. It bites, it really does, that every army is getting bigger and better for less and it's often hard to keep up, even if you play those armies. It's all about marketing, but we can get around that. My solution is simple: screw the system, stay with a group of assault marines, some fast tanks, and then get in close and evade that riptide blasts as best as I can (I don't think it's ever made it's points back against me). 2+ rerollable? Well, kill it with numbers. An assault squad dished out 30 attacks on the charge. Not great, only like 0.5-1 missed saves, but does it go away after one use? Or just Baal it to death (10 s5/6 shots will kill stuff man). It bites, but we can get past this.

Quote:
If you go down to the woods today, be wary
JAMOB is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-13, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 179
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist View Post
Ciaphus Cain, anyone?
I liked Caiphus Cain, but he suffers the same fate as Gaunt's Ghosts. They are only imperial guard so the writing was specifically designed so that the characters will only come up against and fight characters that are realistically in their reach of killing.

Caiphus and Gaunts ghosts will never take down some greater demon or a necron lord etc.

Just to add a note here, a bit off topic.

Is this a growing trend here for scifi/fantasy?
You have popular tv shows/movies where the only way a villian can be defeated is if the hero becomes just as powerful. We have the typical super hero shows where the good guys have to be able to match the enemy in strength as usual or by teaming up and by combining become just as powerful, then you have very popular anime series like DBZ where the character trains and ups his strength and is now able to blow up a planet.
CJay is offline  
post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-13, 09:53 AM
Dazed and confused.
 
Khorne's Fist's Avatar
Khorne's Fist's Flag is: Ireland
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 8,495
Reputation: 105
Default

Cain has taken on demons, chaos marines, Ork warlords, a genestealer patriarch(granted Jurgen did the deed there), survived a stint on a tomb world, never mind the various little missions he seems to have carried out for the Inquisition. That's not exactly writing about enemies that suit the skills of a mere IG commissar.
Khorne's Fist is offline  
 
post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-13, 03:40 PM
Senior Member
 
Gromrir Silverblade's Avatar
Gromrir Silverblade's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Posts: 314
Reputation: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay View Post
I liked Caiphus Cain, but he suffers the same fate as Gaunt's Ghosts. They are only imperial guard so the writing was specifically designed so that the characters will only come up against and fight characters that are realistically in their reach of killing.

Caiphus and Gaunts ghosts will never take down some greater demon or a necron lord etc.

Just to add a note here, a bit off topic.

Is this a growing trend here for scifi/fantasy?
You have popular tv shows/movies where the only way a villian can be defeated is if the hero becomes just as powerful. We have the typical super hero shows where the good guys have to be able to match the enemy in strength as usual or by teaming up and by combining become just as powerful, then you have very popular anime series like DBZ where the character trains and ups his strength and is now able to blow up a planet.
I like to call this the Hulk effect, essentially a character that cannot be killed. The more you hit him, the more bad ass he becomes.

I don't think you can blame Workshop for having fluff about super human characters who have the best stuff to kill the biggest bad ass enemies, it's what people want. If you want stories about the little man doing things read Bernard Cornwell or something similar. The whole point of the grim dark is that you can't do anything as one person. Sure there are exceptions to the rule like Gaunt and Cain, and to be honest, they make the best books. This isn't a new trend for black library, they've always done that, space marines by their very nature are the best of the best, sir, with honours!

All I'm saying is you have to have realistic expectations on the type of genre that you're reading.

It is said that the guttural sound of Dwarfs bellowing Grungni’s name is enough to make an Elf’s knees knock and a Goblin turn a sickly shade of yellow!
Gromrir Silverblade is offline  
post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-13, 03:53 PM
Rattlehead
 
MidnightSun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Sheoth
Posts: 6,741
Reputation: 83
Default


Midnight

Creator of Utilitarian Ultramarines Memes - join the XIII on Facebook (no XVII allowed).
MidnightSun is offline  
post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-13, 06:03 PM
Senior Member
 
Over Two Meters Tall!'s Avatar
Over Two Meters Tall!'s Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 638
Reputation: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay View Post
Just to add a note here, a bit off topic.

Is this a growing trend here for scifi/fantasy?
You have popular tv shows/movies where the only way a villian can be defeated is if the hero becomes just as powerful. We have the typical super hero shows where the good guys have to be able to match the enemy in strength as usual or by teaming up and by combining become just as powerful, then you have very popular anime series like DBZ where the character trains and ups his strength and is now able to blow up a planet.
This factor you've observed is one of the main attractions for the TV series Game of Thrones, or it's even better book-form A Song of Ice & Fire. Even the biggest baddest characters can get taken down for no better reason than they were looking the wrong way at the wrong time.

The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you have to load, or if you have to unload, go to the White Zone. You'll love it... it's a way of life.

Nick Naylor: Cigarettes in space?
Jeff Megall: It's the final frontier, Nick.
Nick Naylor: But wouldn't they blow up in an all oxygen environment?
Jeff Megall: Probably. But it's an easy fix. One line of dialogue. 'Thank God we invented the... you know, whatever device.'
Over Two Meters Tall! is offline  
post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-13, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 179
Reputation: 1
Default

Never mention a song of ice and fire!! Martins writing style is pure shit, and his story is going no where. I hope he dies before he finishes the series.

Cain survived those encounters he didn't kick their asses.

Space marines are the best of the best, but now a single space marine isn't good enough compared to some figures. Even with being genetically superior with the best weapons against something like a big tyranid, they are screwed.
CJay is offline  
post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-13, 08:34 PM
Senior Member
 
VixusKragov's Avatar
VixusKragov's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Indiana, USA.
Posts: 763
Reputation: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay View Post
Never mention a song of ice and fire!! Martins writing style is pure shit, and his story is going no where. I hope he dies before he finishes the series.

Cain survived those encounters he didn't kick their asses.

Space marines are the best of the best, but now a single space marine isn't good enough compared to some figures. Even with being genetically superior with the best weapons against something like a big tyranid, they are screwed.
As for Martin's work- your opinion's your own, but the outstanding sales and popularity seem to argue with you. Personally, I think his work is great.

Cain- surviving those encounters is pretty damn kickass. Most people wouldn't be able to run far enough to piss their pants before they were dead, and he fought on and killed the enemy. For enemies that powerful, surviving with them dead is kicking their ass.

I think the whole thread has a point, if you make all the enemies too ridiculous it can be a problem. But in a world whose own writers say is just a story of how the Imperium slowly dies and fails, it makes sense to have enemies that can crush humanity, and do. It also makes sense for space marines and other such servants of the Imperium to do their duty and fight these threats. And finally, it absolutely makes sense that they succeed sometimes, despite the odds.

Not saying there isn't any fault within the entire spectrum of 40k fluff, but the large majority I've seen isn't a walking Mary Sue collection.

VixusKragov is offline  
post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-13, 08:48 PM
Dazed and confused.
 
Khorne's Fist's Avatar
Khorne's Fist's Flag is: Ireland
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 8,495
Reputation: 105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJay View Post
Never mention a song of ice and fire!! Martins writing style is pure shit, and his story is going no where.
The vast majority of, well, the world, tend to disagree with you, me included. I will agree that he has got bogged down in the last book or two, but the way he keeps lopping off the heads of major characters at random will keep me reading.

Quote:
I hope he dies before he finishes the series.
That happened to Robert Jordan and his Wheel of Time series. Some would say Martin is painting himself into the same corner as Jordan did with a too big, too sprawling story that he just lost control of, but if he does drop off (a distinct possibility seeing as he's an overweight old man) I'm reassured that Brandon Sanderson is waiting in the wings to possibly finish it off like he did with WoT.
Khorne's Fist is offline  
post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-13, 08:53 PM
Senior Member
 
VulkansNodosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 415
Reputation: 20
Default

I think there are two issues being discussed here:

1) That the overall power level of 40K is too high. This, I tend to disagree with, as I personally see ridiculous power levels as part of the appeal of 40K, especially when they're executed in interesting ways. Besides, it's relative strength that matters.

2) That BL books' final battles are decided by brute force and not trickiness. Honestly haven't thought about this, so don't know how much of an issue this is, but that seems to be the heart of the criticism.

Renegades Saga contributions
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...tions-cry.html)
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...s-scarlet.html)
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...lesh-weak.html)
The Emperor has turned to Chaos. The dream of the Imperium has become a nightmare. But Horus and his Coalition stand against the dark, here at the end of time.

Lorgar's Betrayal
(https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...te-heresy.html)
What was broken has been mended. And what was burned away can never be reforged.
VulkansNodosaurus is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Fluff

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome