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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-29-13, 09:03 PM
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agreed
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-29-13, 09:09 PM
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I don't think the novels are grim-dark enough. I read mostly Imperial stories, so almost always the Imperials come out ahead or end up drawing. Rarely do they outright lose.

Yeah, there's usually some heroic deaths and massive causalities sustained by the Imperial forces, but they win or at least deny the enemy victory.

Give me a novel of heroic but ultimately fruitless sacrifices, disastrous battles, and complete defeat.

I would assume the Imperium doesn't fare so well in books written from other perspectives (CSM, Eldar, and Tau books), but I would like a book written from the Imperial point of view, post-heresy, that the Imperium outright loses in the long-term.

As a novel.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-29-13, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by hailene View Post
I don't think the novels are grim-dark enough. I read mostly Imperial stories, so almost always the Imperials come out ahead or end up drawing. Rarely do they outright lose.

Yeah, there's usually some heroic deaths and massive causalities sustained by the Imperial forces, but they win or at least deny the enemy victory.

Give me a novel of heroic but ultimately fruitless sacrifices, disastrous battles, and complete defeat.

I would assume the Imperium doesn't fare so well in books written from other perspectives (CSM, Eldar, and Tau books), but I would like a book written from the Imperial point of view, post-heresy, that the Imperium outright loses in the long-term.

As a novel.
Fall of damnos involves a battle the imperium lost.
Dead men walking is another one.
That's what i know of off the top of my head.

Consider this for every battle the imperium wins millions die. Any necron knocked out will come back eventually. More orks will spawn any that were wounded get bigger. Hundreds will defect to chaos who gets stronger.

Sure they win the battle but at what cost?
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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-29-13, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hailene View Post
I don't think the novels are grim-dark enough. I read mostly Imperial stories, so almost always the Imperials come out ahead or end up drawing. Rarely do they outright lose.

Yeah, there's usually some heroic deaths and massive causalities sustained by the Imperial forces, but they win or at least deny the enemy victory.

Give me a novel of heroic but ultimately fruitless sacrifices, disastrous battles, and complete defeat.

I would assume the Imperium doesn't fare so well in books written from other perspectives (CSM, Eldar, and Tau books), but I would like a book written from the Imperial point of view, post-heresy, that the Imperium outright loses in the long-term.

As a novel.
When you read a novel you are reading of that armies triumph/victory, for every victory the imperium suffers atleast 1 defeat. You want a novel were the Imp loses read the one I mention on page 1.

SPOILERS TO SAID BOOK


When I read a Book I at least want to read of a minor victory and not men/ammo wasted for no reason.
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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-29-13, 11:13 PM
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When you read a novel you are reading of that armies triumph/victory, for every victory the imperium suffers atleast 1 defeat. You want a novel were the Imp loses read the one I mention on page 1.

SPOILERS TO SAID BOOK


When I read a Book I at least want to read of a minor victory and not men/ammo wasted for no reason.
Why don't you go and read ultra dork and grey knight fluff then.
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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-29-13, 11:45 PM
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Why don't you go and read ultra dork and grey knight fluff then.
I'm assuming you mean dark, I have I like it. Sure I have no problem about losing battles, it's reading about the battles and all the loses not even meaning anything., hell Down Amongst the Dead Men was less dark than Deadmen Walking and the


meanwhile in Deadmen walking



Edit: If you mean ultrasmurf then I don't see the utter hopeless wasteful losses.

Last edited by locustgate; 07-29-13 at 11:47 PM.
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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 12:21 AM
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I read Fall of Damnos. I actually don't recall too much of the novel...it was pretty bad. The impression I remember is so bad that I don't have the motivation to walk across my house to flip through it again.

I got my hands on a copy of Deadmen Walking. I'll probably get on it in a couple weeks or so.
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 01:41 AM
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I'm assuming you mean dark, I have I like it. Sure I have no problem about losing battles, it's reading about the battles and all the loses not even meaning anything., hell Down Amongst the Dead Men was less dark than Deadmen Walking and the


meanwhile in Deadmen walking



Edit: If you mean ultrasmurf then I don't see the utter hopeless wasteful losses.
I meant ultra smurf. and from the omnibus I don't see anything that would state they had a heric victory.

The imperial guard is a billion's strong fighting force. 99.99999% of the men who serve will die a pointless death holding or taking a pointless area and will be forgotten or their best accomplishment will be becoming a improvised sandbag for a weapons emplacement after they die the .00001% might become the next sly marbo or ciaphas cain. who do things that have larger repercussions.

That's the nature of the imperium. All that talk of a few guardsmen manning outposts of freedom holding off charging hordes of orks or cultists by iron will and las rifles doesn't exist.

That is the nature of the imperium.
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 05:19 AM
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No advancement in plot.
Too much emphasis on kid friendly grimdark while making the background as scary as a pop up book

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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 07:56 AM
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No advancement in plot.
Too much emphasis on kid friendly grimdark while making the background as scary as a pop up book
Agreed. Even the most sinister beings are toned down. The Dark Eldar should evoke pants-shitting fear with an utterance of their name. But all you hear about are the drugs and orgys. Sure if they catch you alive you'll be made into a living toy, slave or gladiator. But in the end, they will not only kill you but eat your soul. And as if their ways of killing you aren't excruciating enough, we should get a real look at Necrons and Chaos. There are actually parts of Harry Potter darker than 40K.

Then again, maybe we a desensitized. Sure, they gloss over the truly evil things(Grey Knights killing those they should protect to bless their weapons), but they are mentioned. They aren't left as some "dark mystery." But things are definitely becoming more kid friendly(to recruit new, over-protected, young gamers). That's why you end up with fluff contradictions like Necrons. That's what I truly dislike.

But as I said, the new generation are too sheltered. We even shelter them from failure. But that's a rant for another time. We have some kids just starting to play at my gaming store. I think this is great, especially when they say it is more fun than videogames. But we are all making a conscious effort to be no worse they PG around them. When they expressed interest in Daemons, we had to tell them to check with their parents if they could play them. If I bring my Dark Eldar on a night they show up, I have to be careful. Nothing like getting a death glare from their parent when you mention the Wyches' drugs and how they fight better with them.

Oops. Got a little carried away. Sorry.

"Fetch me another plaything. This one seems to have broken." -Urien Rakarth

Space Marine- "This planet is ours, witch."
Eldar- "No ... This planet is theirs ..."
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