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post #81 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by NetherMessenger View Post
But it's not much fun to say that the only person who could in any circumstance have been warmaster is, the warmaster. Where's the fun in that?

So perhaps we might discuss, if any of the other primarchs had been chosen, how would the Chaos Gods have tried to corrupt them? And would it have been harder for any of them?

Would for instance Vulkan, Sanguinius or Roboute have changed as quickly as Horus? I'd imagine Conrad, Perturabo, Angron and Lorgar deffecting the quickest.
The whole discussion is fun in its own way to entertain ideas. But frankly, I think allowing people to truly believe someone else would have been warmaster is pretty ludicrus.

I'm not a big fan of discussing Sanguinus. I think CotE hit the nail on the head when he explained how the Crusade would have demoralized him.

But then lets discuss the primarchs with good records. We have Dorn, Guilliman, and the Lion. I think an interesting idea would to think about Dorn. Dorn's confrontation with Curze while putting down a rebellion showed two different things in my eyes. Firstly it showed the warped way Curze looked at loyalty and the crusade. Secondly, I think it also showed Dorn's stern and defiant attitude towards that that went against the Emperor's Will, the Imperial Idea, and essentially... propaganda. For example, the closure of the Librarian order didn't mean the Emperor was going to abandon any use of sorcery or tampering with the Warp. When we see the Emperor's future plans with the Imperial Webway we can see that he was using that as a way of control over unpredicatable forces. Did Dorn see it the same way? Or did he look at sorcery as an Evil? It's been said that Dorn's mind is like a "fortress," "Impenatrable." (SP) Logically, he was good at keeping the Imperial Dream protected and defiantely close minded at accepting change. If the Emperor had been able to finish the Webway and then shown his sons a bit more about the plans of the future, at least Horus would have had an open mind to keep on following the Emperor without being surprised and/or disgusted. His meeting with the Interex displays Horus' open-mindedness to incorporate advancement for the future of the Imperium. So while Dorn basically became Warmaster during the rebellion of Horus, it can be said that it was only due to the circumstance of the Imperial State. There was a need for protection of the Strict Imperial Way. Any open-mindedness that would have expanded the state of being in the Imperium was thrown away. Dorn was never meant to expand the Imperium. Despite the current state of the Imperium, at least Guilliman was able to accept change and promote a new Imperium.

Guilliman is interesting because he represents change to the Imperium. Would he have made a good Warmaster? I think Guilliman represents dramatic change, and even as far as saying a flux of change. The state of the Imperium has gone constant change in order to fight it's different enemies, including itself at times. Though it has kept the Imperium alive, his dream of the Imperum was not the Emperor's Dream. Thats why I would say that he changed the Imperial Way the moment he made himself Ruler of the Imperium. He destroyed the legacy and capability of the Legions (bad or good).

The Lion is an interesting primarch. It would indeed be interesting to know what the Emperor thought of the Lion as secret as he was. If we looked at the Emperor in the way that he knows more about the Primarchs than they probably think he knows, then I would think there is a good reason why the Emperor did not appoint the Lion to that position. The fact that he lived on a tainted world signals a big no no for me. I believe it contributes to a few flaws that takes him off of being a potential candidate. The one motif that we see with the Lion throughout the heresy is his uncertainty with essentially everybody. He trusted the wrong people, and distrusted the right ones. On one hand he distrusts his legion and on the other he trusts Perturabo. On one hand it is hinted he knows there's something wrong with Luther after he attempted to kill the Lion... it even hints that he knew the attempt... and yet, he allowed him to live and prosper with recruitment. On the other hand he cuts of Namiel's head for holding himself with the Emperor's Edict. The amusing thing about all his actions is that there are justified explanations to account for them. Yet, it all leads to the destruction and dishonor of his legion. It seems like his actions are for the lack of better words... warped.
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post #82 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-11-13, 01:08 AM
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Angron - casualty rate of SM in first few weeks - TOTAL
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post #83 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-11-13, 05:21 PM
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Russ - because he didn't want that role :-)
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post #84 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-11-13, 06:35 PM
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I think the main part of being warmaster would be the people aspect, afterall Horus didn't manage every battle, so it is not their skill as a fighter but as a manager.
That said I cant really speak of the best idea so this will just be a rant trashing all possible candidates.
1st-The lion is just a savage armoured in honour, i would say he lacks the finesse required to marshal 18 god princes each with very different ideas.
3rd-Fulgrim is a good candidate, but I think he would be just to aloof, plus giving the role to someone so egotistical would have created another heresy anyway.
4th-Perturabo in no way has the charisma required for the role, plus i think he might be a bit to rigid to use his brothers to their best potential.
5th-Cant really speak of the Khan as I don't know much about him, but i think he might be to uncultured for his brothers to respect his decisions.
6th-Russ is a twat.
7th-Dorn is far to straight forward a thinker, that and I think he would be unable to really use his brothers in the best way (Curze for instance).
8th-Night Haunter knows the futility of his actions as he can see the death of the imperium, that and the whole insanity problem.
9th-Sanguinius is flawed by paranoia about his own shortcomings, so would be to inclined maybe doubt his own descisions.
10th-Ferrus in no way has the required people skills to lead primarchs.
12th-ANGRON obvious problems.
13th-Roboute again does not have the skills required.
14th-Mortarion I know practically nothing about, but what I know is that he is very distant and so would not be a good candidate.
15th-Magnus constantly underestimated his brothers, he would end up doing stuff like senf=ding two legions to eliminate a barbarian planet because without sorcery how can anything be achieved? that and he is not well liked enough.
16th-Horus, probably the best choice, but look where that went.
17th-The Urizen is a priest not a warlord.
18th-Vulkan (same as Khan)
19th-Corax, I think Corax may be to much of a battle field leader, but again i dont really know much.
20th-Twins, far to secretive, not liked, arrived to late, take to long to achieve goals, untrustable.
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post #85 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-13-13, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by joebauerek View Post
This is a tough one... depends on if the chaos gods have a part to play.

If not obviously horus was the right choice....

Other wise I would have to say:

1) Magnus has the forward planning and learning ability to over come most foes

2) Russ hes the ultimately loyal general plus he would have the great crusade finished faster.

3) Sanguinus hes the best all rounded of all the primarchs and his brothers seem to respect him therefore would be a better combined leader.

Whilst Dorn and Guilliman are good choices I think the flaws in their personal character (anger and pride/snobbery respectively) would hamper their ability to lead effectively.
Magnus would be good IF primarchs like mortorion, russ, and logar weren't against psychics

russ was to unruly and barbaric

Sanguinus had gene deformations

my pick would be either dorn or vulkcan dorn because he was an unstoppble force while vulcan showed compassion in everything he did
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post #86 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-14-13, 01:47 AM Thread Starter
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Actually Vulkan is sounding like a good choice

I honestly don't think Horus is the best choice. He has major "daddy issues". If daddy doesn't tell him everything he's planning or stay in constant contact with him, he feels betrayed and abandoned
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post #87 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-19-13, 07:13 PM
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Sanguinius definitely the common people love the guy they even named a holiday after him you really have to have earned there respect and love to get that. If only the flaws in his genes could be cured then he be perfect. Not just as warmaster but as heir to the emperor should something happen

If not him then Guilliman he is not only a great military leader but also a great civilian leader/politician. he will be to keep any strife between civilian and military leaders in check.

I would say Russ but sadly he far too much warrior. and not every primarch gets along with him sure he gets shit done but you need more than a big sword to lead
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