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post #71 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-31-13, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by zerachiel76 View Post
I was thinking of the Warmaster in the strategic sense. The one who plans the campaigns and dispatches the legions to their various objectives. Since Alpharius would be making these decisions then he would be Warmaster even if the orders appeared to be coming from the Emperor.
I understood what you meant, I was just pointing out that the position of Warmaster is just as much political as strategic.

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My plan would be for Alpharius to buy Magnus' silence by offering him what he wants - the freedom to continue his research and modus operandi without a witchhunt against him and his Legion. Such was Magnus' vanity and certainty that what he was doing was right, I think that Alpharius offered him a deal for his silence that he'd take it.
But since Magnus doesn't think he's doing anything wrong why does he need to make a deal? Why should he have to help Alpharius to get what he deserves? Plus, the Warmaster's approval should indicate the Emperor's approval. Which I think Magnus would be interested in making official (see below), meaning he'll get in contact with the Emperor. Meaning that Alpharius' contradiction of Nikea will be exposed. Meaning Alpharius will be boned.

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Magnus may see this as a positive sign that his knowledge and power was being accepted by the Warmaster himself.
But not officially, since officially there is no Warmaster.

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No more having to defend himself against Mortarion, Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn who hated the idea of Librarians
Except that since Alpharius' condoning of Magnus is a secret but Nikea remains a public act, Magnus must still face the condemnation of his brothers who still have every reason to believe that they were right.

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If he went via a proxy then the contact methods could be intercepted.
I think it's pretty safe to say he went through a proxy. But then, so are millions (if not billions) of other people. That's a lot of proxies the Alpha Legion have to intercept. Do they have the man-power to do that, infiltrate the Legions and still appear to be an effective military force?

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That being said, I didn't think that the Warmaster did command the Mechanicum although I could be wrong.
Maybe command was the wrong word. Horus and Kelbor-Hal seem to have worked pretty closely during Horus' run as Warmaster (that's how he got turned) and it certainly makes sense that the Warmaster would have to be involved pretty closely with the guys responsible for making and shipping his weapons.

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However such is the skill of Alpha Legion that I believe that given a few years as sleepers then these operatives would be successful in hacking the Legions communication methods.
Certainly possible. There is going to be a period before those operatives are operational though and in that period (potentially a couple years as you point out) the Alpha Legion are flying blind.

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Quietly assassinate someone who has the skills needed, eat them and hey presto.
You do realize that you just suggested murdering perfectly loyal soldiers of the Imperium right? And cannibalizing them! Just so that the Alpha Legion has the opportunity (not necessarily the ability) to infiltrate a completely loyal Legion so as to manipulate it into continuing to be completely loyal. Just... no.

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The Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Death Guard and of course the World Eaters would present their own problems but I'm thinking facial implants to disguise as the Space Wolves, face transplants for the Blood Angels, cosmetic non functioning Butchers Nails for the World Eaters for appearances sake and I'm not sure about the Death Guard due to the poisons - I'll come back to it
The problem with faking these Legions isn't how much you look like them (that's easy) it's how much you think like them; whether or not you can fake their tactics convincingly. Can someone without the Nails keep pace with the World Eaters? An Alpha Legion infiltrator almost shows his hand to the Raven Guard by using a move they're not trained in during a combat simulation. Can they keep themselves from doing similar things within these Legions, or others whose tactics (down to the individual level) are likely to be very different from what the operatives themselves ere trained to do? Especially in the face of suicidal orders? A World Eater (and probably a Space Wolf and Blood Angel to a lesser extent) wouldn't question an order to charge into the face of overwhelming opposition, they wouldn't even hesitate. But that's not the way an Alpha Legionnaire is brainwashed to think, so they will hesitate. The operatives are going to run into this problem in every single Legion. At some point they are going to be expected to do something that they were never trained to do (or were trained not to do).

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Since the Emperor was concentrating on his Webway, as long as the crusade continued the way he wanted and Alpharius could justify what he was doing then I don't see why he wouldn't be ok with it. Again we don't know for sure but since the Emperor was non contactable much of the time then I think he'd be happy.
The problem is that your rational for the Emperor choosing Alpharius is that he knows Alpharius will be able to keep tabs on his brothers, meaning that the Emperor has to explicitly approve of this infiltration (and now, assassination) before he picks the Warmaster. I just don't see him being willing to do that.

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This is just my theory and I'm trying to cover any holes discovered as much as I can. Hope this is ok? I'm having fun expounding on my theory
Of course, but in order to develop a solid theory and cover any holes, someone has to show you those holes. That's all I'm doing, asking questions.

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post #72 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-05-13, 09:26 PM
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Without the benefit of hindsight, most likely Sanguinius for his loyalty. But with that benefit, it would have to be Roboute for his loyalty and leadership. The third would have to be vulkan, for his loyalty and compassion.


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post #73 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-05-13, 10:24 PM
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Without the benefit of hindsight, most likely Sanguinius for his loyalty. .
Without the benefit of hindsight, why would you have considered Sanguinius more loyal than Horus?



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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
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post #74 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-06-13, 06:40 AM
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Because even Horus admits as such.

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post #75 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 02:34 AM
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I personally don't understand why people think anyone else would have been better for Warmaster than Horus. The problem most people have is that they associate Horus as a pure traitor, and he was the GREATEST of primarchs by far. Chosen by the greatest being in the galaxy to be Warmaster. There was a reason for it. The influence of Chaos is too powerful for ANY primarch to avoid. Chaos warps the body and mind. ANY Primarch that had been tainted by Chaos could have been turned into an agent of Chaos.

Again, Chaos changes, manipulates what it touches and there is no cure. Even to think you can fight the manipulation of chaos is ludicris, if you think about how chaos can manipulate the flesh, I think it would be easier for Chaos to manipulate the electronic impulses in the brain or even the brain itself. When thought of this way, I think it is very telling that discussing who wouldn't turn to choas when tainted is very unproductive unless they have Grey Knight invincibility.

One could say that perhaps a better Warmaster would have been one with less influence over the legions. But by playing Devil's advocate, A Warmaster that lacks the will to drive or manipulate the legions to his will would have slowed or halted the Great Crusade. Horus was that driving force that would have been able to drive ALL the legions to his will, however he was also the same force able to create enough strength to devastate the Imperium the way it did during the Heresy.
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post #76 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 03:38 AM
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How about this...I wonder if a Pariah could have been the best? A trust worthy one, of course.

We know from the Ravenor series that a psyker can't mentally communicate with a Blank, so it might stave off the more...seductive qualities of Chaos. Or manipulative.

Just gotta find one with the capability to lead, to be trust worthy, and somehow earn the respect of at least some of the Primarchs.

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post #77 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by NetherMessenger View Post
Because even Horus admits as such.
Does he? If you're referring to the False Gods quote, here it is:

No mention of his loyalty.

Sanguinius is dismissed as a suitable candidate for Warmaster in several Heresy novels due to being "too ethereal" or too "aloof", and I agree with such conclusions. That, and the amount of self-doubt that would have consumed him if he was appointed. Look at how much Horus struggled with the position (Horus Rising and False Gods) despite his gargantuan arrogance and ambition. Sanguinius would have floundered. And of course, his dark flaw could have been easily manipulated and exploited by Chaos.

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Originally Posted by ckcrawford View Post
I personally don't understand why people think anyone else would have been better for Warmaster than Horus. The problem most people have is that they associate Horus as a pure traitor, and he was the GREATEST of primarchs by far. Chosen by the greatest being in the galaxy to be Warmaster. There was a reason for it. The influence of Chaos is too powerful for ANY primarch to avoid. Chaos warps the body and mind. ANY Primarch that had been tainted by Chaos could have been turned into an agent of Chaos.

Again, Chaos changes, manipulates what it touches and there is no cure. Even to think you can fight the manipulation of chaos is ludicris, if you think about how chaos can manipulate the flesh, I think it would be easier for Chaos to manipulate the electronic impulses in the brain or even the brain itself. When thought of this way, I think it is very telling that discussing who wouldn't turn to choas when tainted is very unproductive unless they have Grey Knight invincibility.

One could say that perhaps a better Warmaster would have been one with less influence over the legions. But by playing Devil's advocate, A Warmaster that lacks the will to drive or manipulate the legions to his will would have slowed or halted the Great Crusade. Horus was that driving force that would have been able to drive ALL the legions to his will, however he was also the same force able to create enough strength to devastate the Imperium the way it did during the Heresy.
Well said.



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Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).

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post #78 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 09:31 AM
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Let me say that I support Horus as the most likely Primarch, by far, to be elected Warmaster. It just makes sense. His record speaks for himself, his charisma, and the generally strong, positive relationships he shared with many of his brothers.

But the topic said we're playing with hindsight. While Horus may have been the safe bet, we have the fortune of knowing that he will fall (and I assume that while we know we will fall, for the purposes of the discussion we can not prevent his fall, at least so long as we keep the variables the same IE elect Horus warmaster).

So know that Horus, while the most attractive candidate, is doomed to fail (for the purposes of this discussion). I mean, technically, at this point, picking Angron is better since he has the ever so slightest chance of actually succeeding as opposed to our theoretical Horus that is guaranteed to fail, right?
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post #79 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by hailene View Post
Let me say that I support Horus as the most likely Primarch, by far, to be elected Warmaster. It just makes sense. His record speaks for himself, his charisma, and the generally strong, positive relationships he shared with many of his brothers.

But the topic said we're playing with hindsight. While Horus may have been the safe bet, we have the fortune of knowing that he will fall (and I assume that while we know we will fall, for the purposes of the discussion we can not prevent his fall, at least so long as we keep the variables the same IE elect Horus warmaster).

So know that Horus, while the most attractive candidate, is doomed to fail (for the purposes of this discussion). I mean, technically, at this point, picking Angron is better since he has the ever so slightest chance of actually succeeding as opposed to our theoretical Horus that is guaranteed to fail, right?
True. But if Horus, the best candidate for selection as Warmaster by far, failed, it doesn't provide much hope for any of the others!



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Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).
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post #80 of 87 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 08:33 PM
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But it's not much fun to say that the only person who could in any circumstance have been warmaster is, the warmaster. Where's the fun in that?

So perhaps we might discuss, if any of the other primarchs had been chosen, how would the Chaos Gods have tried to corrupt them? And would it have been harder for any of them?

Would for instance Vulkan, Sanguinius or Roboute have changed as quickly as Horus? I'd imagine Conrad, Perturabo, Angron and Lorgar deffecting the quickest.

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