If you were the Emperor, who would you pick to be Warmaster? - Page 7 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #61 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 04:17 AM
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Same dude he picked, assuming I knew what he knew at the time he made that choice. Before he went entirely bat-shit, Horus seemed like a good choice.

Barring that, Sanguinius, Dorn, or Guilliman. Probably in that order.

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post #62 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
If the orders appear to be coming from the Emperor, Alpharius isn't a Warmaster. Not having an official Warmaster defeats most of the point of having a Warmaster, which was that the Emperor could retire to his webway project without being bothered. If people think the Emperor's still in charge then they're going to keep trying to get in touch with him. Maybe the Alpha Legion can head of most of those attempts but remember that the Warmaster doesn't just command the Astartes but the entire military might of the Imperium, like Mars. Mars is very close to Terra, you don't think Kelbor-Hal might try to get in touch with the Emperor directly? Or what about Magnus, he can talk to the Emperor directly across space. How is the Alpa Legion going to intercept that? All in all the Alpha Legion would be so busy faking the Emperor's continued presence that they'd be quickly found out when there ability to campaign disappeared.
I was thinking of the Warmaster in the strategic sense. The one who plans the campaigns and dispatches the legions to their various objectives. Since Alpharius would be making these decisions then he would be Warmaster even if the orders appeared to be coming from the Emperor.

I agree with your point about Magnus. I've been thinking about this point since I first posted my idea and this is where my idea falls down. I think Magnus would need to be brought into the facade. My plan would be for Alpharius to buy Magnus' silence by offering him what he wants - the freedom to continue his research and modus operandi without a witchhunt against him and his Legion. Such was Magnus' vanity and certainty that what he was doing was right, I think that Alpharius offered him a deal for his silence that he'd take it. Even going so far as to accept Alpha Legion Librarians to train with the Thousand Sons. Magnus may see this as a positive sign that his knowledge and power was being accepted by the Warmaster himself. If the deal was accepted then Magnus and the Thousand Sons only had everything to gain. No more having to defend himself against Mortarion, Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn who hated the idea of Librarians and he and his Legion could operate on their own far from any prying eyes apart from the Legions who were more sympathetic to him and his Legion.

Kelbor Hal is a different matter. As we don't know exactly whether he had a direct line to the Emperor or had to use a proxy such as the Sigillite, I'm a bit stuck. If he had a direct line then he might need to be brought in. If he went via a proxy then the contact methods could be intercepted. That being said, I didn't think that the Warmaster did command the Mechanicum although I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
For the record: the Night Haunter and the Night Lords were never official criticized, sanctioned or otherwise punished for their behaviour. At no point did the Emperor show anything but approval for their actions.
As Hailene said, Curze was sanctioned prior to the Heresy. Index Astartes II states he was called to account.

Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
Alpharius is a smart guy (though other Primarchs are just as smart) but he's never really shown himself to be a psychological manipulator of any real skill. Many of his brothers true motives are hidden even from themselves until they are exploited in their fall. You are expecting Alpharius to know more about his brothers (who he's only know for a couple decades and even then not personally) than the Emperor knew about his sons (who he crafted for the gene up).
I'm only expecting Alpharius to know what his brothers are thinking due to extensive spy networks implanted in their Legions. The Emperor has gone to plan the Webway project so Alpharius would now need to find as much as he could about his brothers and he'd do what the Alpha Legion do best - spying.

Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
I highly doubt that the Alpha Legion possesses the ability to infiltrate agents into all the other Legions, let alone get those agents into a position to be able to determine the psyche of their Primarchs. Remember that the infiltration of the Raven Guard took place in the complete chaos of Istvaan, an unprecedented opportunity. Other Legions have numerous language, behaviour and cultural quirks that would make them more difficult to infiltrate. And also remember that one of the Alpha Legion operatives comes very close to blowing his cover in the Raven Guard.
This point came up in another thread so I'm glad it's come up here. I agree some of the other Legions would be more difficult than others. However such is the skill of Alpha Legion that I believe that given a few years as sleepers then these operatives would be successful in hacking the Legions communication methods. Regarding the languages, behaviour and cultural quirks I think the Alpha Legion would use their Omophagea. Quietly assassinate someone who has the skills needed, eat them and hey presto. I agree this infiltration would take a while but if we're changing the whole set up then its possible the Heresy could have been prevented or at least delayed or minimised. Therefore I think the Alpha Legion would have had longer to prepare and infiltrate.

The Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Death Guard and of course the World Eaters would present their own problems but I'm thinking facial implants to disguise as the Space Wolves, face transplants for the Blood Angels, cosmetic non functioning Butchers Nails for the World Eaters for appearances sake and I'm not sure about the Death Guard due to the poisons - I'll come back to it

Originally Posted by MEQinc View Post
And of course you're assuming the Emperor would be okay with the Alpha Legion infiltrating all the other Legions (and non-Legion military bodies). And why would he be?
Since the Emperor was concentrating on his Webway, as long as the crusade continued the way he wanted and Alpharius could justify what he was doing then I don't see why he wouldn't be ok with it. Again we don't know for sure but since the Emperor was non contactable much of the time then I think he'd be happy.

This is just my theory and I'm trying to cover any holes discovered as much as I can. Hope this is ok? I'm having fun expounding on my theory

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post #63 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 07:22 AM
nice boy, daft though !
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none of the above, he should have overlooked his sons and chosen that little known chap Geoff "the warmaster" Smith who applied in writing for the position and had an awesome CV,went through all the aptitude tests with flying colours and had a blistering interview with HR, only to get overlooked for someone who "related to someone who worked there".
And as always with these family run companies, the son gets sick of the "boss" and wants to show that he can do it on his own, the old man wants to teach junior a lesson about how experience is everything and as always happens in these things, two sons dead and father ends up a half dead corpse strapped to a golden chair.

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post #64 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 09:04 AM
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Guiliman would have made a far better warmaster. Addicted to planning and logistics. All the planning and minutiae was what soured Horus on the position with his own words, he was a warrior at heart and wanted to lead grand attacks in the field.
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post #65 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Brother Lucian View Post
Guiliman would have made a far better warmaster. Addicted to planning and logistics. All the planning and minutiae was what soured Horus on the position with his own words, he was a warrior at heart and wanted to lead grand attacks in the field.
I almost agree with you. The problem is that many of the Primarchs thoughts of him were largely of either disgust or envy. Also I believe regardless what was written by our mighty authors that he is a self obsessed Primarch. Even going as far as Fulgrim, he believed he deserved his own empire ruling a giant amount of worlds. When his father was forced to live on the Golden Throne he wanted to be a regent, and then head regent of Terra. Almost as self loving as Fulgrim (ok maybe not almost, but up there with Angron and Lorgar in self love.)

His own brother Russ (most obviously) and the Khan as well as partial "disobedience" by Dorn.....Ugh, in conclusion the warmaster would die faster than Horus if it was the Primarch of the Ultramarines. Lorgar added to Angron with a twist of ANY other Primarch would crush the Ultramarines like the clones and bible(codex) worshipers they are.

I do however like your point about his incredible planning and execution....problem is the majority of all Primarchs disliked mr.Guilliman.
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post #66 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 03:32 PM
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Yeah that's the main problem with Guilliman as Warmaster. The position is a popularity-competition and only two guys are generally well-liked. It's Horus and Sanguinius. Anyone else and things goes awry from the get go. I mean think Magnus as Warmaster f.ex., then I see hilarity ensue. Or Dorn he has a problem he can't lie even when it's good for him. I mean such people tends to be awful friends, having such a guy as your brother even worse. Or we can turn it around. I don't think Russ would have been a good Primarch as he is basically a bully and Magnus would then be locked in a basement somewhere. Or Perturbo, well he was too envious of Dorn anyway and would have spent his time as Warmaster trying to undermine him. And the more unconvensional Primarches would be in hot water with Guilliman as a Primarch. And lets see Corax, the Salamander-Primarch, the Lion, all roleplayers. That rarely the captain of the team. I can only come up with one example where it happened, and that was Craig Rivet with the Sabres.

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post #67 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 03:46 PM
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i personally think vulcan,not cause im in love with him well maybe i am but thats not the point, these are my reasons.
1he was a calm and level headed thinker who did not let personal thoughts influence his decisions.
2.he was heavily respected by all corners of the imperium and seen as the ideal space marine.
3. no matter how strange or hoe disliked his decisions were there was always a clever and good strategy behind it leading to victories.
4.he wasnt overly attached to his dad like horus was which lead to him feeling abandoned.
5. no matter the costs or risks he would not let innocents be left to their doom which followed on with the salamanders all the way to Armageddon.

plus lets face it hes a bad ass who cant die

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post #68 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by hailene View Post
I wonder if there's some rule he's breaking. After all, he just puked up some random facts and refuses to back them up. Potentially that could lead to misinforming people about the reality of the fluff.

That has to be against the rules, right?
Unfortunately not. And I wouldn't all them facts either.
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post #69 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-30-13, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Achaylus72 View Post
Guilliman would not be a great choice. Just think of the consequences had Guilliman been seduced by the power of being Warmaster.
Shame, means vanilla codex could be vanilla rather than 'codex ultramarine' with all the "epic" battles the ultramarines were involved in that the citadel marine-heads cream themselves over (read: matt ward)

Would be better to see fulgrim at the head... Just because
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post #70 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-31-13, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gen.ahab View Post
Same dude he picked, assuming I knew what he knew at the time he made that choice
According to the OP, you're making the choice with 20/20 hindsight (or foreknowledge if you prefer) of the Horus Heresy...in that case, I don't think you'd pick Horus unless you think every other primarch would be just as (or more) susceptible to corruption.

Barring that, Sanguinius, Dorn, or Guilliman. Probably in that order.
Despite his popularity and prowess, Sanguinius had a major flaw (the seed of the Red Thirst)...perhaps if he hadn't died, he would've become less of a noble angel and more of a berserk vampire. Guilliman was just as arrogant and ambitious as Horus, but without the daddy issues. Dorn is the safest pick I think
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