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post #21 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 10:05 AM
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He isn't made for socialisation, he sucks at it but at war he's perfect!
I daresay a Great Crusade Warmaster's war-making skills are of secondary importance. I mean, you want a Warmaster who can string enough victories under his belt for respect, but that's merely a means to an end. You need someone who can keep 17 demi-gods (who think they know best) in line. And for that, I don't think the Lion is well-suited, as you said.
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post #22 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 10:10 AM
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I daresay a Great Crusade Warmaster's war-making skills are of secondary importance. I mean, you want a Warmaster who can string enough victories under his belt for respect, but that's merely a means to an end. You need someone who can keep 17 demi-gods (who think they know best) in line. And for that, I don't think the Lion is well-suited, as you said.
I'm onboard there the Lion is too egocentric to be the Warmaster. He is better as a direct leader in the battle. Guilliman or a combination of people like Lost suggested would be a better idea. And Horus was the best idea until he got corrupted, but that's the basis of the story of 40k., favorite son betrays dad.

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post #23 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 12:38 PM
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Aumm good one I forgot to put it into consideration...

The way I think it should have been done is to give each of the Primarchs a different rule just like you have a Prime Ministers and ministers under them.

Dorn and Perturabro for defence and fortification of fragile areas in the Imperium, The Lion as the 'Master of War', Konrad and Corvus for stealth opperations and Guerilla warfare, Alpharius for espionage, Guilliman for the political and social roles as well as maintaining the complete infrastructure of the Imperium from the smallest most isolated agriworld to the biggest Hive World and protecting the weakest planets and so on...

As for calling the Lion egocentric I think you are wrong, or maybe he is egocentric but less than other Primarchs like Guilliman... I think he is one of the only Primarchs who understood the role of the Emperor in the Imperium (by that I mean he understood the importance of the Emperor while others, like Guilliman, didn't care much for Him and supported the idea of usurping the throne when the Emperor is dead) and one of the Primarchs who loved their Father the most.
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post #24 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 05:04 PM
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I feel curze with his foresight and perception of doing what needs to be done would prevent rebellion. The iron warriors rebelled due to their legion being the only one used for garrison duties, curze would have each legion use a portion of their marines for garrisoning worlds.

As for those who state curzes ideology was not effective, is just not true. Curze had the lowest amount of casualities in his crusade campaigns. Furthermore curze had a very high victory count, with one of the lowest rebellion rates of his conquered worlds. Additionally his worlds were some of the most productive in all of the imperium, they always met their quotas for production, always gave tithes.

The only world that rebelled against curze was nostramo, which was the worst world he had ever conquered, none of the others did what nostramo did. Curze was pragmatic and percetible, couple that with him being shown the same favor, love, and guidance from the emperor that horus received, would ensure curze was stable.
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post #25 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 05:49 PM
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like Guilliman, didn't care much for Him and supported the idea of usurping the throne when the Emperor is dead
This is purely my opinion at this point, but I always believed that Guilliman cared about both the Imperium and the Emperor. From his point of view, the Imperium and the Emperor was crippled beyond complete salvation. Better to save some than lose everything. It's like amputating an a couple limbs to save a person's life. We should get a better idea of Guilliman's intentions in that one soon to be released book (forgot its name), though, right?

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I feel curze with his foresight and perception of doing what needs to be done would prevent rebellion.
His foresight was cloudy and unpredictable. If we were going to use anyone's foresight, I'd trust Magnus's over Curze's.

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The iron warriors rebelled due to their legion being the only one used for garrison duties, curze would have each legion use a portion of their marines for garrisoning worlds.
And the whole reason why the Iron Warriors had to do it was because no one else wanted to do it. How are you going to convince 17 Primarchs to force their sons to be glorified PDF? Plus, some are clearly unsuited for the duties. The World Eaters overseeing a recently conquered planet? Or even Curze's own Night Lords?

Would he allow these Legions to skip out on their duties? If he does, then rest of the Legions are going to get pissed. If he doesn't, then a lot of people are going to end up dead when the World Eaters and Night Lords get bored and find excuses to start massacring people.

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Curze had the lowest amount of casualities in his crusade campaigns.
Source? I imagine the Thousand Sons, a Legion one tenth the average size Legion, suffered fewer overall causalities.

In terms of operatives lost as percentage of overall strength, I imagine the Alpha Legion probably came out ahead. Their method of warfare was slow, careful, and calculating.

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Furthermore curze had a very high victory count,
Source? We know that Horus was first, Guilliman second. The Lion was up there as well. Later on, Lorgar's men took the lead.

I can't recall any passages that state the Night Lords racking up a particularly high victory count.

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with one of the lowest rebellion rates of his conquered worlds
Source?

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Additionally his worlds were some of the most productive in all of the imperium, they always met their quotas for production, always gave tithes.
Source?

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The only world that rebelled against curze was nostramo,
Source?

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which was the worst world he had ever conquered
Source?

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post #26 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 06:07 PM
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There are two legions perfect for that, the Word Bearers and Ultramarines. They were both builders and Lorgar is basically Guilliman's evil twin. But Guilliman was a glory-hog and Lorgar for obvious reasons weren't used.

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post #27 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 06:20 PM
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Rogal Dorn, he oozes awesome from every part of his body, when he pisses the toilet feels blessed to have such a titanicly awesome level of sheer manliness left in it, you don't need to flush the damn thing, it feels compelled through duty to swallow it, he is so epic he is the only man to ever make chuck Norris question his sexual orientation, his hair was never even white, it just one day realised it was on Rogal fucking Dorns head and turned white from sheer awesome overdose

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post #28 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 06:54 PM
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Sorry for the delay in continuing our conversation. It also sounds like you've developed a solid antagonism against the Ultramarines and Guillaumin, which seems to be pretty common, but ah well.

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And yet, placed in the same (or far worse) situation not a single one of his brothers makes that decision. Guilliman alone abandons the Imperium in favour of his own empire (not even the Traitors do this). Guilliman sits down, takes stock and says "Screw you guys, I'm going home". And worse than that, he tries to get his brothers to do the same. He tricks Sanguinious into diverting to his position and tries to convince him to stay. Sanguinious has lost much of his Legion, he's been physically beaten in a way he never thought possible, he's far from home and just as confused as Guilliman (if not more so), but even still he recognizes that his duty is to go to Terra and fight for the Imperium, to die for it if necessary. Other Primarchs repeatedly show themselves to be willing to take risks and make sacrifices (even the greatest sacrifice possible) in order to defend the Emperor and the Imperium. When the cards are down, Guilliman shows himself unwilling to do so. Maybe you can overlook that or think that it wouldn't matter if he was Warmaster but personally I would never, ever chose someone to be in a position of absolute responsibility if I knew they would abandon it if pressed hard enough.
Which brother are you talking about? Dorn was already on Terra and stayed there for the duration. Manus runs headlong into Isstvan V despite everyone’s best advice and gets himself killed and his legion reduced to almost nothing. Corax returns to Terra and won’t accept any answer besides giving a super-Astares gene template to the Alpha Legion. While the Emperor gave permission to Corax for all this he even says it’s all a bad idea but knows Corax won’t do anything else. The Kahn is tied up across the galaxy and doesn’t even know anything is going on until before the Siege of Terra, and Sanguinius is in a similar position until well into the Heresy.

Guillaumin, on the other hand, doesn’t pull a Cartman imitation, but says, “Holy shit, my homeworld is on the verge of being destroyed, several of my most productive planets have been destroyed, half my legion has been destroyed, I have two entire Traitor Legions trying to destroy all the other worlds in Ultramar, and no one can even get through to Terra, and the Astronomican is completely dark.” When he can get through to Terra, he sets sail across half the galaxy despite warp storms that look like Old Night. Sounds like solid decision making to me.

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Actually I recall the opposite. I recall Horus going out of his way to meet with various Primarchs, discuss their concerns with his new position and address those concerns.
I don’t disagree with you here, but it still didn’t stop all the documented questioning and envy among his brothers.

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All these things continue because Horus takes over. Would they still have happened if someone else was in charge? I don't think they would've.
In Horus Rising, Horus even states he’s not doing anything more than just keeping the Crusade going on the course it was and struggling with the management side. Although I agree that without Horus as Warmaster, Alpharius/Omegon might have turned to him to ask a few questions before just turning traitor, which would have been positive for the Imperium. Lorgar was already 45+ years on the path of Heresy by the time of Ullanor. I do agree with you that Magnus might have taken a different path, only assuming that Guillaumin wouldn’t have been the target of Chaos for turning simply because he’s Warmaster. In this case, perhaps he could have called on Guillaumin with far less consequence to give his warning than blowing down the doors of Terra.

The egos of the rest of the Primarchs carry through no matter who’s in charge. Even after the Heresy breaks out, Horus only manages the traitor side of the ledger by fear and subterfuge… with the exception of maybe Lorgar, who already believes Ingathel’s claim that he’s the ‘Chosen One’ and not Horus.

I would note that Guillaumin (was apparently, since I don't have source outside Lexicanum) led in large part by Guillaumin, who was also key in ensuring the survival of the Imperium and effective reorganization that's allowed it to last another 10K years despite the Traitor Legions and all the other Xenos out there. I just think that with the Emperor backing him up and not active Traitor legions, Guillaumin would have been able to corral the rest of the Primarchs to continue the GC.

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1) Perturabo, Angron and Night Haunter remain fully functional generals long after Ullanor.

2) Horus recognized the best way to utilize Legions like the World Eaters and Night Lords, would Guilliman? By which I don't mean: Can Guilliman recognize the best strategies for them, because of course he could. I mean: Would Guilliman allow those Legions to continue functioning in the manner they are designed to, would he allow them to use the strategies they've come to embrace and depend on? His reaction to their 'excesses' leads me to think he wouldn't. But neither Angron or Night Haunter would be swayed on this, both recognize their roles and both have fully embraced them. Do you think they'd take kindly to goodie-two-shoes Guilliman telling them they're wrong? Horus knows how to make broken pieces work effectively, does Guilliman?
All three of the primarchs I mentioned were functioning generals after Ullanor, yes, but Horus is able to recruit them into the Heresy because they are all but lost by the time the Heresy commences,which tells me a little goodie-twoshoes might have been in order before they completely melt down. Perturabo commits genocide on Olympia and sees himself on the verge of being cleansed by the Emperor, Angron is virtually uncontrollable as described early in Galaxy in Flames, and the Night Haunter destroys Nostramo and goes off the rails. If Horus hadn't been turned, he would have had to face three brothers he couldn't control at all.

I haven’t seen anything in actual fluff that shows these three were effective any longer due to the presence of Horus than had Guillaumin been chosen Warmaster. And considering Guillaumin built and governed the "500 Worlds of Ultramar", I would say that's proof enough that he knew how to effectively use all his resources, broken or otherwise.

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What 'patterns' was Lorgar creating? The Chaplains were a recognized and fully instituted part of Imperial policy. The Lodges were a far more covert thing, and I don't believe any existed beyond the Legions that turned, so there'd be no reason to expect Guilliman to be more aware of them. Further, the Heresy as instituted by Lorgar is a war unlike anything Guilliman had ever seen before. He's smart, yes, but is he smart enough to see something that literally no one else (not even the Emperor) saw coming?
Yeah, this is a stretch, but looking at the examples in Know No Fear, Guillaumin pays attention to the extreme details and draws patterns out of them. The Emperor had a massive blind spot considering he couldn’t even smell the taint of Chaos on Lorgar, one of his own sons, for decades before the betrayal. Horus Rising details how much Horus hates and feels overwhelmed by the daily tasks of running the Great Crusade, so I do think that having Guillaumin in his place at the center of things would have allowed his analytic abilities to smell something wrong with Lorgar and the Chaplains before being completely blindsided by the Heresy.

While the Emperor did have a blind spot for Lorgar's treachery, he did still see the Heresy coming. Calling Dorn to Terra to fortify the Imperial Palace when the Imperium is in the final stage of the Great Crusade is prima fascia proof of that.

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post #29 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 08:52 PM
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Sorry for the delay in continuing our conversation. It also sounds like you've developed a solid antagonism against the Ultramarines and Guillaumin, which seems to be pretty common, but ah well.
I don't hate the Ultramarines. I dislike them, and their Primarch, for their (and especially his) hypocrisy but I don't hate them. Sorry if that came across wrong.

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Which brother are you talking about?


Sanguinious. As I stated in my prior post. Fear to Tread ends with the Blood Angels running for home, following what they believe to be the Astronomicon and winding up in Ultramar.

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Guillaumin, on the other hand, doesn’t pull a Cartman imitation, but says, “Holy shit, my homeworld is on the verge of being destroyed, several of my most productive planets have been destroyed, half my legion has been destroyed, I have two entire Traitor Legions trying to destroy all the other worlds in Ultramar, and no one can even get through to Terra, and the Astronomican is completely dark.” When he can get through to Terra, he sets sail across half the galaxy despite warp storms that look like Old Night. Sounds like solid decision making to me.
1) Guilliman was clearly able to get to Terra earlier than he did. The Blood Angels manage to get from Ultramar to Terra before the traitors, how is it that Guilliman wasn't?

2) Other people were able to get through to Terra. Remember that the Heresy lasted for quite a while. Throughout that period Guilliman either makes no attempt to get informed or simply doesn't help, both of which are effectively an abandonment of the Imperium in its time of greatest need.

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I don’t disagree with you here, but it still didn’t stop all the documented questioning and envy among his brothers.
Perhaps not but it did stop that questioning and envy from negatively affecting the campaign (and it does seem to have stopped most of the questioning).

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only assuming that Guillaumin wouldn’t have been the target of Chaos for turning simply because he’s Warmaster.
Which is an increadibly foolish assumption, given that the whole reason they picked Horus was because he was Warmaster (at least seemingly).

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Even after the Heresy breaks out, Horus only manages the traitor side of the ledger by fear and subterfuge


Except Perturabo, who notes in Angel Exterminatus that Horus was never less than kind and understanding with him. Or Angron, who worked extremely closely with Horus throughout much of this period (and certainly wouldn't respond well to being threatened). Or Fulgrim, again one of Horus' closest brothers during Horus' Warmastery. Or Night Haunter, who again is not one to be cowed by fear. Or Lorgar, as you note. And (while I can't say this with as much certainty) I doubt Alpharius could be manipulated by subterfuge, nor do I see any evidence to suggest that Mortarion was manipulated or pressured into turning. What I see instead is Horus carefully growing relations with some of his most stubbornly anti-social brothers and then using that leverage to his advantage. I see no attempt, quite literally none, by Guilliman to befriend his brothers. He's the only loyalist Primarch I've seen to express no sense of personal loss at his brothers' treason. Because he doesn't know them and he doesn't care to.

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I would note that Guillaumin (was apparently, since I don't have source outside Lexicanum) led in large part by Guillaumin, who was also key in ensuring the survival of the Imperium and effective reorganization that's allowed it to last another 10K years despite the Traitor Legions and all the other Xenos out there. I just think that with the Emperor backing him up and not active Traitor legions, Guillaumin would have been able to corral the rest of the Primarchs to continue the GC.
I assume you're talking about the Scouring?

That being the case I'll point out that Dorn (at the time one of only 4 Primarchs he had to deal with and previously one of the most unquestioningly loyal) had to be fired upon in this period in order to get him to recognize Guilliman's authority. Meanwhile his other remaining brothers (also the generally loyal and easier-to-get-along-with ones) seem to have basically gone off and done their own thing, seemingly with giving two-shits about Guilliman's orders. If that's your proof that he could handle dealing with his actually temperamental brothers then I'm afraid you're rather proving my point.

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All three of the primarchs I mentioned were functioning generals after Ullanor, yes, but Horus is able to recruit them into the Heresy because they are all but lost by the time the Heresy commences,which tells me a little goodie-twoshoes might have been in order before they completely melt down.


Do you really, truely, honestly believe that there was anything that could be said to Angron or Night Haunter that would've changed the path they and their Legions were on? I don't. And I think any attempt to do so would've ended very poorly for Guilliman. Just look at how Night Haunter reacted when Dorn questioned him (hint: not well).

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Perturabo commits genocide on Olympia and sees himself on the verge of being cleansed by the Emperor,
1) The genocide of Olympia was manipulated by the Word Bearers and is in no way indicative of a general downward slide in Pertuarbo's facilities. Indeed his intense remorse after the fact shows that he wasn't mentally all that fucked up.
2) Perturabo was never "on the verge" of punishment by anyone because Olympia occurred at pretty much exactly the same time as the Heresy (I'm unclear as to the exact timeline because it seems to be a key reason he turned, but is also clearly not held against him going to Istvaan V).

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Angron is virtually uncontrollable as described early in Galaxy in Flames,
And yet also shown in that book is that Horus generally did manage to control him.

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If Horus hadn't been turned, he would have had to face three brothers he couldn't control at all.
Debatable. The Iron Warriors fall was hardly inevitable. The World Eaters were likely pretty much doomed but wouldn't necessarily have turned traitor before being consumed by the Nails. Angron and his Legion show themselves to be remarkably forgiving of slights against them and just as happy butchering in the Imperium's name as any other. Night Haunter was also likely a lost cause but it does seem that his sanity slippage accelerated rapidly right around the time of the Heresy and I have a hard time believing that was entirely coincidental. Plus, he and his Legion also seem to actively enjoy doing what they do for the Imperium and certainly did a much better job of it while they were still 'employed' so to speak.

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And considering Guillaumin built and governed the "500 Worlds of Ultramar", I would say that's proof enough that he knew how to effectively use all his resources, broken or otherwise.
Does is show that he can use broken pieces or does it show that he doesn't have any? Guilliman had the luxury of only using the pieces he wanted with Ultramar, and so could ensure that those peices functioned exactly as he wanted them to. He doesn't have that luxury as Warmaster.

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The Emperor had a massive blind spot considering he couldn’t even smell the taint of Chaos on Lorgar, one of his own sons, for decades before the betrayal.
But you believe Guilliman, who unlike the Emperor doesn't know about Chaos and hasn't seen Lorgar in a while (because they really don't get along), would be able to see this?

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While the Emperor did have a blind spot for Lorgar's treachery, he did still see the Heresy coming. Calling Dorn to Terra to fortify the Imperial Palace when the Imperium is in the final stage of the Great Crusade is prima fascia proof of that.
I'm not so sure he saw the Heresy coming. He almost certainly saw something coming but if he in anyway suspected an internal schism I would have expected to see a) less shock when it happened, b) some of the more 'troublesome' Legions being dealt with (or at the very least monitored) in advance and c) less intentionally isolating himself from the sources of that schism.

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post #30 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 09:56 PM
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Wow MEQ. I have seen dislike and I have seen hatred. I don't like the Ultra Marines one bit, but your points were over the top. And coming from me who is a classified hater that says alot.

It has long been canon that the Ultras was distracted on Calth. And then they were trolled by the Alpha Legion. They were delayed on the way on Horus' orders.

Also Two Meter, you sound a bit unprofessional when you warp a Primarch's name. That's like calling Angron Angryon. It's make you sound like a five year old. It's just poor taste.

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