Originally Posted by Over Two Meters Tall!
Sorry for the delay in continuing our conversation. It also sounds like you've developed a solid antagonism against the Ultramarines and Guillaumin, which seems to be pretty common, but ah well.
I don't hate the Ultramarines. I dislike them, and their Primarch, for their (and especially his) hypocrisy but I don't hate them. Sorry if that came across wrong.
Which brother are you talking about?
Sanguinious. As I stated in my prior post. Fear to Tread ends with the Blood Angels running for home, following what they believe to be the Astronomicon and winding up in Ultramar.
Guillaumin, on the other hand, doesn’t pull a Cartman imitation, but says, “Holy shit, my homeworld is on the verge of being destroyed, several of my most productive planets have been destroyed, half my legion has been destroyed, I have two entire Traitor Legions trying to destroy all the other worlds in Ultramar, and no one can even get through to Terra, and the Astronomican is completely dark.” When he can get through to Terra, he sets sail across half the galaxy despite warp storms that look like Old Night. Sounds like solid decision making to me.
1) Guilliman was clearly able to get to Terra earlier than he did. The Blood Angels manage to get from Ultramar to Terra before the traitors, how is it that Guilliman wasn't?
2) Other people were able to get through to Terra. Remember that the Heresy lasted for quite a while. Throughout that period Guilliman either makes no attempt to get informed or simply doesn't help, both of which are effectively an abandonment of the Imperium in its time of greatest need.
I don’t disagree with you here, but it still didn’t stop all the documented questioning and envy among his brothers.
Perhaps not but it did stop that questioning and envy from negatively affecting the campaign (and it does seem to have stopped most of the questioning).
Which is an increadibly foolish assumption, given that the whole reason they picked Horus was because he was Warmaster (at least seemingly).
only assuming that Guillaumin wouldn’t have been the target of Chaos for turning simply because he’s Warmaster.
Even after the Heresy breaks out, Horus only manages the traitor side of the ledger by fear and subterfuge
Except Perturabo, who notes in Angel Exterminatus that Horus was never less than kind and understanding with him. Or Angron, who worked extremely closely with Horus throughout much of this period (and certainly wouldn't respond well to being threatened). Or Fulgrim, again one of Horus' closest brothers during Horus' Warmastery. Or Night Haunter, who again is not one to be cowed by fear. Or Lorgar, as you note. And (while I can't say this with as much certainty) I doubt Alpharius could be manipulated by subterfuge, nor do I see any evidence to suggest that Mortarion was manipulated or pressured into turning. What I see instead is Horus carefully growing relations with some of his most stubbornly anti-social brothers and then using that leverage to his advantage. I see no attempt, quite literally none, by Guilliman to befriend his brothers. He's the only loyalist Primarch I've seen to express no sense of personal loss at his brothers' treason. Because he doesn't know them and he doesn't care to.
I would note that Guillaumin (was apparently, since I don't have source outside Lexicanum) led in large part by Guillaumin, who was also key in ensuring the survival of the Imperium and effective reorganization that's allowed it to last another 10K years despite the Traitor Legions and all the other Xenos out there. I just think that with the Emperor backing him up and not active Traitor legions, Guillaumin would have been able to corral the rest of the Primarchs to continue the GC.
I assume you're talking about the Scouring?
That being the case I'll point out that Dorn (at the time one of only 4 Primarchs he had to deal with and previously one of the most unquestioningly loyal) had to be fired upon in this period in order to get him to recognize Guilliman's authority. Meanwhile his other remaining brothers (also the generally loyal and easier-to-get-along-with ones) seem to have basically gone off and done their own thing, seemingly with giving two-shits about Guilliman's orders. If that's your proof that he could handle dealing with his actually temperamental brothers then I'm afraid you're rather proving my point.
All three of the primarchs I mentioned were functioning generals after Ullanor, yes, but Horus is able to recruit them into the Heresy because they are all but lost by the time the Heresy commences,which tells me a little goodie-twoshoes might have been in order before they completely melt down.
Do you really, truely, honestly believe that there was anything that could be said to Angron or Night Haunter that would've changed the path they and their Legions were on? I don't. And I think any attempt to do so would've ended very poorly for Guilliman. Just look at how Night Haunter reacted when Dorn questioned him (hint: not well).
1) The genocide of Olympia was manipulated by the Word Bearers and is in no way indicative of a general downward slide in Pertuarbo's facilities. Indeed his intense remorse after the fact shows that he wasn't mentally all that fucked up.
Perturabo commits genocide on Olympia and sees himself on the verge of being cleansed by the Emperor,
2) Perturabo was never "on the verge" of punishment by anyone because Olympia occurred at pretty much exactly the same time as the Heresy (I'm unclear as to the exact timeline because it seems to be a key reason he turned, but is also clearly not held against him going to Istvaan V).
And yet also shown in that book is that Horus generally did manage to control him.
Angron is virtually uncontrollable as described early in Galaxy in Flames,
Debatable. The Iron Warriors fall was hardly inevitable. The World Eaters were likely pretty much doomed but wouldn't necessarily have turned traitor before being consumed by the Nails. Angron and his Legion show themselves to be remarkably forgiving of slights against them and just as happy butchering in the Imperium's name as any other. Night Haunter was also likely a lost cause but it does seem that his sanity slippage accelerated rapidly right around the time of the Heresy and I have a hard time believing that was entirely coincidental. Plus, he and his Legion also seem to actively enjoy doing what they do for the Imperium and certainly did a much better job of it while they were still 'employed' so to speak.
If Horus hadn't been turned, he would have had to face three brothers he couldn't control at all.
And considering Guillaumin built and governed the "500 Worlds of Ultramar", I would say that's proof enough that he knew how to effectively use all his resources, broken or otherwise.
Does is show that he can use broken pieces or does it show that he doesn't have any? Guilliman had the luxury of only using the pieces he wanted with Ultramar, and so could ensure that those peices functioned exactly as he wanted them to. He doesn't have that luxury as Warmaster.
But you believe Guilliman, who unlike the Emperor doesn't know about Chaos and hasn't seen Lorgar in a while (because they really don't get along), would be able to see this?
The Emperor had a massive blind spot considering he couldn’t even smell the taint of Chaos on Lorgar, one of his own sons, for decades before the betrayal.
While the Emperor did have a blind spot for Lorgar's treachery, he did still see the Heresy coming. Calling Dorn to Terra to fortify the Imperial Palace when the Imperium is in the final stage of the Great Crusade is prima fascia proof of that.
I'm not so sure he saw the Heresy coming. He almost certainly saw something coming but if he in anyway suspected an internal schism I would have expected to see a) less shock when it happened, b) some of the more 'troublesome' Legions being dealt with (or at the very least monitored) in advance and c) less intentionally isolating himself from the sources of that schism.