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post #11 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 01:35 AM
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Guilliman would not be a great choice. Just think of the consequences had Guilliman been seduced by the power of being Warmaster, Primarch or not he still is human, and with human frailties, he then could use his power to basically ride roughshot over the Emperor, i would say had Guilliman gone over to Chaos after being seduced, he takes is Ultramarine Legion with him, 60%+ of all Space Marines as well the traditional Legoins that went with Chaos, the Imperium would fall, the Emperor killed and Chaos wins by default.

Think of the book title.

The Guilliman Heresy.

Ultramarines are Pussies

Except Dark Angels, any chapter that sounds like a Death Metal Band can't be that bad.
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post #12 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 02:04 AM Thread Starter
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In all fairness though, Unremembered Empire will address in detail the issue of Guilliman's loyalty. I think it's a little premature to say that Guilliman's Imperium Secundus is a dereliction of duty.

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Curze. Seriously.
I think you're off your rocker LOL

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Think of the book title. The Guilliman Heresy.
Sounds like you're saying Guilliman would've been a more effective arch-traitor than Horus
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post #13 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 04:13 AM
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In all fairness though, Unremembered Empire will address in detail the issue of Guilliman's loyalty. I think it's a little premature to say that Guilliman's Imperium Secundus is a dereliction of duty.

I think you're off your rocker LOL

Sounds like you're saying Guilliman would've been a more effective arch-traitor than Horus
Yes, considering that the Ultramarine Legion was the largest by far it's number eclipsed all other combined, with Guilliman taking 60% of all Available Space Marines over to Chaos, nothing would be able to stop him, and combining the other 9 Traitor Legion, that is the death of the Imperium as we would know it, what would happen is that any non-traitor legion would simply be wiped out, also there would be no break-up of the legions, nor there would be the Codex Astartes, one hell of big difference.

Or on the other hand, you have me thinking of another direction.

Guilliman is deposed as Legion Master of the Ultramarine and the Ultramarine maintain their loyalty to the Emperor.

Ultramarines are Pussies

Except Dark Angels, any chapter that sounds like a Death Metal Band can't be that bad.
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post #14 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Achaylus72 View Post
Yes, considering that the Ultramarine Legion was the largest by far it's number eclipsed all other combined, with Guilliman taking 60% of all Available Space Marines over to Chaos, nothing would be able to stop him, and combining the other 9 Traitor Legion, that is the death of the Imperium as we would know it, what would happen is that any non-traitor legion would simply be wiped out, also there would be no break-up of the legions, nor there would be the Codex Astartes, one hell of big difference.

Or on the other hand, you have me thinking of another direction.

Guilliman is deposed as Legion Master of the Ultramarine and the Ultramarine maintain their loyalty to the Emperor.
Whilst the Ultramarines were the largest legion, they didn't 'eclipse all the others combined'. They had a strength of 250,000. The average Legion size was 100,000. So whilst over twice as strong as a single legion, compared to the overall strength of the legions they're still outmatched by a ratio of 10 to 1.

I'm not sure where you're getting this 60% of all available Space Marine numbers from. Are you perhaps thinking of the Ultramarines position amongst the loyalists during the Scouring or the number of second founding and subsequent chapters formed from their gene-seed?

Besides if Guilliman were to revolt it's very unlikely the 9 Legions that would become the Traitor Legions would join him. He lacked the charisma of Horus and few of the primarchs were his friends. If he had revolted it's likely it would have been just him, perhaps a few others.

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post #15 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 05:14 AM
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I agree with Curze being selected, with the favour and attention of the Emperor he would have been hand molded into a functioning leader. If curze would have received the same amount of attention, training, and love that Horus did he would have been amazing. A Warmaster that could see the future and more importantly could see the exact outcome it was going to take, out of the millions of potential futures. Curze was also not afraid to do what needed to be done, yet he was also one of the legions with the lowest causality rate both of civilians and of astartes.

I believe Curze would have been very effective at directing which legions to which location at the precise time they needed to be there, he would direct the big picture while leaving the minor details up to the primarchs under him.

Furthermore I believe Curze would have hardened the human race, to prepare it for the monstrous future that was inevitably coming.

Curze was not broken, he merely lacked the attention and guidance he so needed in order to actualize his potential. If the Emperor had shown him more attention, trained him, helped him utilize his gifts, Curze would have been unmatched.
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post #16 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 05:36 AM
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I'm not sure where you're getting this 60% of all available Space Marine numbers from.
60% of M.41 Loyalist Chapters derive their geneseed from the Ultramarines. So...not very relevant to the current conversation.

I disagree with Curze. It might work on the short term, but as we saw with Nostromo, as soon as you turn your back people will revert back to whatever they were.

I STILL think Horus is the right choice for Warmaster. He just got along with most of his brothers. And the ones he didn't, they merely were indifferent. I don't think anyone overtly hated him (jealous of his elevation to Warmaster, but not outright hatred).

I would break up the role of Warmaster, though, and give the administrative portion to Guilliman. Maybe give the information gathering to the Alpha Legion (however much they'd be willing to share is another matter...)

I'm on the fence about the Thousand Sons researching the arcane. On one hand, if you keep an eye on them, they could discover a wealth of information. On the other hand, they're probably going to hide whatever they're doing. I don't see it really working unless Magnus buys into overseeing the works of his sons.

In short, I don't think forcing the Warmaster to wear so many hats at once will work. The job is too vast for a single person--or demigod. You'd be better off working with a group of individuals working in concert. Maybe call them the Elevated Nobles of Earth or something. That ought to work.

But if I HAD to pick, I'd still choose Horus, murder Erebus, and purge the Word Bearers.
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post #17 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 07:03 AM
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60% of M.41 Loyalist Chapters derive their geneseed from the Ultramarines. So...not very relevant to the current conversation.

I disagree with Curze. It might work on the short term, but as we saw with Nostromo, as soon as you turn your back people will revert back to whatever they were.

I STILL think Horus is the right choice for Warmaster. He just got along with most of his brothers. And the ones he didn't, they merely were indifferent. I don't think anyone overtly hated him (jealous of his elevation to Warmaster, but not outright hatred).

I would break up the role of Warmaster, though, and give the administrative portion to Guilliman. Maybe give the information gathering to the Alpha Legion (however much they'd be willing to share is another matter...)

I'm on the fence about the Thousand Sons researching the arcane. On one hand, if you keep an eye on them, they could discover a wealth of information. On the other hand, they're probably going to hide whatever they're doing. I don't see it really working unless Magnus buys into overseeing the works of his sons.

In short, I don't think forcing the Warmaster to wear so many hats at once will work. The job is too vast for a single person--or demigod. You'd be better off working with a group of individuals working in concert. Maybe call them the Elevated Nobles of Earth or something. That ought to work.

But if I HAD to pick, I'd still choose Horus, murder Erebus, and purge the Word Bearers.
The reason I believe Curze would have been very effective as warmaster (under the pretense that he received the same favor, and attention that Horus did), was that he would forsee the uprisings and know how to deal with them. Seeing as he would have all 18 legions at his command, he could garrison small amounts of space marines on conquered worlds to prevent uprisings. Also keep in mind that Nostramo was very different from a majority of the worlds in the imperium, it was the epitome of a dystopian world.
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post #18 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 08:16 AM
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, was that he would forsee the uprisings
Curze's foresight wasn't all-seeing. Nor was it 100% accurate. It didn't even seem particularly under his control. It just...happened. Though he did catch wind of the Horus Heresy before hand. It would have been interesting to see what he would have done.

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he could garrison small amounts of space marines on conquered worlds to prevent uprisings.
That's sorta one of the reasons why the Iron Warriors turned to Chaos.

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Also keep in mind that Nostramo was very different from a majority of the worlds in the imperium, it was the epitome of a dystopian world.
Funny thing, I reckon that's a hit against Curze. Nostramo was, as you said, a dystpoian hell-hole. It's not a place where you give everyone food, water, shelter, and education and everything turns to garden of Eden. You needed a firm, brutal hand to keep things in line.

Precisely what Curze did.

Precisely what 99.99% of the rest of the Imperium did not need.
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post #19 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 09:13 AM
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I think Lion El'Jonson would be the choice

He isn't made for socialisation, he sucks at it but at war he's perfect! He basically personifies the Emperor's Judgement and neutrality - his actions are without remorse or conscience but they are the right and the good choice.

Sanguinius would make a great 'next' Emperor (even Horus said it - each Primarch is a different facet of the Emperor but Sanguinius had it all). It also fits with the whole Roman thing with Julius Caesar secretly having epilepsy (spoiler alert? xD). I guess the difference was that Julius didn't have a few hundred thousand warriors under his command with the same disease D:
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post #20 of 87 (permalink) Old 07-25-13, 09:33 AM
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Abnett does a good evaluation with this in "Know No Fear".

Guilliman I think would absolutely be the right choice, though some good reasons for Horus being picked instead were discussed in that novel. I think it was Horus being a bit more charismatic or something. Everyone loved Horus, remember. The idea of any of them rebelling was unimaginable at the time.

You can never be prepared for the unexpected


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