Were the Dark Angels the only Legion to include non "true" astartes? - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-13, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist View Post
But they were still full Astartes at the end of it, not hybrids like Kor Phearon or Luther. The younger the recruit the better the odds of survival, but it doesn't mean older recruits cannot undergo the full transformation. I think the problem with Luther and KP is that they were well beyond the age that made it any way feasible. KP was already an old man, and Luther middle aged, IIRC.
No disagreement there! I hope my post didn't make it seem like I was saying something else.
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-21-13, 08:01 PM
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Much the same way the Inquisitors do or how the Sisters of Battle wear power armour. Normal humans can wear power and tactical dreadnought armour, they just don't interface with it like Space Marines can. To normal humans its 'merely' excellent armour. To a Space Marine it's a second skin with a host of secondary functions.
I would think that the Black Carapace would be one of the easier modifications to make to post-convert as it's even given to marines through surgery. So I would expect that Luther and Kor Phaeron would have worn power armour (or terminator armour) that was fully and properly integrated. The reason this isn't done for Inquisitors and Sisters is likely because either the suits they wear don't have the option for the interface anyway (since they'd be a different model designed for regular humans) or because the Astartes aren't willing to share the process by which the Carapace is implanted.

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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-21-13, 08:47 PM
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Well when it comes to almost Astartes you have Kor and Inquisitor Hector Rex a Mary Sue that went toe-to-toe with a Bloodthirster even trading blows and winning. Oddly I never hear anyone complain about that, so I will mention the most vilified creature of them all Kaldor Draigo. Guess that Bloodthirster really wasn't really a match for a Primarch after all.

Kor and Luther were non-Astartes Astartes. The rest had remembrancers, though they seem to just be glorified journalists. You had Custodians assigned to each legion, so they count in a loose term.

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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-21-13, 09:42 PM
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In The Primarchs story Feat of Iron, at the end of the story it talks about some of the IG assigned to the Iron Fists


I don't know if that qualifies under the OP, but it certainly seems like a legion officially adopting non-Astares. The 'Warhammer 40 K Wiki' indicates the Chainveil are the Iron Fists 'mortal Auxilia forces', although I'm not familiar with other chapters/legions having similar units.

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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-21-13, 10:45 PM
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I don't know if that qualifies under the OP, but it certainly seems like a legion officially adopting non-Astares. The 'Warhammer 40 K Wiki' indicates the Chainveil are the Iron Fists 'mortal Auxilia forces', although I'm not familiar with other chapters/legions having similar units.
It brings to mind the Ayettguard in Battle of the Fang. Trusted humans trained by astartes to carry out tasks that there simply aren't enough marines to do. I think the Ultramarines train the IG regiments raised in Ultramar as well. A lot of the officers would have been in school with boys that went on to become smurfs. I would imagine that any human force trained by SMs would be a step or two above your average guardsman, with or without augmentation.

I vaguely remember a story in one of the anthologies from the early days of BL in which a chapter used failed initiates and human auxilaries to crew all their vehicles, including land speeders, because there simply weren't enough marines. I think they were the Scythes of the Emperor, but I could be wrong.
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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-21-13, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist View Post
I vaguely remember a story in one of the anthologies from the early days of BL in which a chapter used failed initiates and human auxilaries to crew all their vehicles, including land speeders, because there simply weren't enough marines. I think they were the Scythes of the Emperor, but I could be wrong.
I vaguely remember a Space Wolf story telling how failed initiates get turned in to weapons servitors... might have been one of the Ragnar novels. Different chapters probably deal with thier failed initiates differently..

Back on topic, hasn't there been mention of some of the Iron Hands marines not being full space marines? I guess whenever the Primarch is rejoined with his legion, his mortal battle brothers would want to continue fighting with him by becoming a Space Marines no matter the cost (Dark Angels and Space Wolves being known examples). All excepting Angron anyway, the big E left his brothers to die, despite them arguably being the most suited to a life dedicated to battle...
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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-21-13, 11:42 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist View Post
It brings to mind the Ayettguard in Battle of the Fang. Trusted humans trained by astartes to carry out tasks that there simply aren't enough marines to do. I think the Ultramarines train the IG regiments raised in Ultramar as well. A lot of the officers would have been in school with boys that went on to become smurfs. I would imagine that any human force trained by SMs would be a step or two above your average guardsman, with or without augmentation.

I vaguely remember a story in one of the anthologies from the early days of BL in which a chapter used failed initiates and human auxilaries to crew all their vehicles, including land speeders, because there simply weren't enough marines. I think they were the Scythes of the Emperor, but I could be wrong.
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I vaguely remember a Space Wolf story telling how failed initiates get turned in to weapons servitors... might have been one of the Ragnar novels. Different chapters probably deal with thier failed initiates differently..

Back on topic, hasn't there been mention of some of the Iron Hands marines not being full space marines? I guess whenever the Primarch is rejoined with his legion, his mortal battle brothers would want to continue fighting with him by becoming a Space Marines no matter the cost (Dark Angels and Space Wolves being known examples). All excepting Angron anyway, the big E left his brothers to die, despite them arguably being the most suited to a life dedicated to battle...
Cheers guys. I've recently picked up Battle Brother Artemis and Witch Hunter Tyrus and was thinking of maybe doing them up as a Pre Heresy Legion Astartes Brother and a Non Astrates one however the amount of work to turn the MK8 armor of Artemis to a Pre Heresy Pattern is a little bit too much especially to such an amazing mini has caused me to reconsider it. Probably going to make him Captain Cortez now. Fuck knows what I'll do with Tyrus, maybe a Rogue Trader in Power Armor.

Anyway I was under the impression that yea failed Marine recruits got servitorised, I know in the 3rd edition SW dex it says so in the Iron Preist entry. Wasn't aware of the Scythes of the Emperor one though.
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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-22-13, 03:02 AM
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I would think that the Black Carapace would be one of the easier modifications to make to post-convert as it's even given to marines through surgery.
Technically speaking, though, ALL of the gene-seed organs are introduced through surgery. I don't know what the success rate of one organ is versus that of another, but it's all gene-seed at the end of the day. It's not as if it'd be easier to introduce the Black Carapace than the Betcher's Gland to someone who couldn't be an Astartes due to age.

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So I would expect that Luther and Kor Phaeron would have worn power armour (or terminator armour) that was fully and properly integrated.
I'm not sure it would be to the same degree, though. One of the things mentioned in 'Descent of Angels' was that the knights of the Order who had been too old to take the gene-seed had been made superhuman... but could never be on par with Space Marines.

The lack of the Black Carapace would be exactly one of the things that would set them apart, I think. I don't believe it's a coincidence, for example, that 'Luther' wore what was described in 'Fallen Angels' as "closer-fitting", less-bulky armour.

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The reason this isn't done for Inquisitors and Sisters is likely because either the suits they wear don't have the option for the interface anyway (since they'd be a different model designed for regular humans) or because the Astartes aren't willing to share the process by which the Carapace is implanted.
Agreed on both counts. I can't see how the Adeptus Astartes would suffer gene-seed to be used for individuals other than Space Marines. There is no mention of another process by which an organ like the Black Carapace can be made. Point of fact, I imagine any attempt to duplicate the Emperor's works to such a degree would be seen as blasphemous.

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What I find interesting, though, is that the Adeptus Mechanicus haven't figured out a mechanical equivalent. Practically every Techpriest Engineseer wears power armour, but - in game terms at least - it affords them no advantage other than superior protection. With access to bionics (to make them stronger), and proven cybernetic interfaces (see servo-arms), I'm amazed that the Mechanicus hasn't crossed that bridge.

My guess is that it's not worth their effort either on a micro- or a macro-scale. When it comes to leaders and elites, I imagine extensive bionic augmentation provides the same benefits as Astartes power armour (great protection, enhanced strength, etc.). When it comes to their soldiers, the Adepts simply don't care about them enough to make the investment. Skitarii and Praetorians are more than capable versus most threats out there, and the true arm of combat among the Mechanicus has always been the Titan.

Still, I'm curious as to why individual Engineseers wouldn't experiment with cybernetic interfaces for their power armour as an interim solution (since they obviously don't yet possess enough bionics to not need said power armour). You would think it's the sort of initiative they would be rewarded for. Unless augmentation is already a controlled process to begin with, and is used as a reward for a job well done.

Ah, well. I'm rambling.
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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-22-13, 03:32 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
The lack of the Black Carapace would be exactly one of the things that would set them apart, I think. I don't believe it's a coincidence, for example, that 'Luther' wore what was described in 'Fallen Angels' as "closer-fitting", less-bulky armour.
Sounds a bit like a Pre Heresy form of Imperial Power Armor

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Unless augmentation is already a controlled process to begin with, and is used as a reward for a job well done.
As far as I'm aware augmentation beyond the basics required to get the job done is a reward both for good work and political clout even within AM. It's not just handed out willy nilly.
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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-22-13, 07:17 PM
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Technically speaking, though, ALL of the gene-seed organs are introduced through surgery.
Oh, my mistake, I thought some of the organs developed naturally as a result of the gene-seed.

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The lack of the Black Carapace would be exactly one of the things that would set them apart, I think.
Though it could be anything really. It's obvious that the post-converts don't get the same extent of modification so any and all of the missing augmentations would be enough to make them sub-par.

Quote:
I don't believe it's a coincidence, for example, that 'Luther' wore what was described in 'Fallen Angels' as "closer-fitting", less-bulky armour.
But Kor Phaeron, who would've had the same modifications as Luther, wore Terminator Armour that IIRC wasn't described as being different in anyway. It's certainly possible that Luther's armour is mandated by his lack of the black carapace but its also possible that it was a style (or something else) choice.

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What I find interesting, though, is that the Adeptus Mechanicus haven't figured out a mechanical equivalent. Practically every Techpriest Engineseer wears power armour, but - in game terms at least - it affords them no advantage other than superior protection.
My understanding of the Black Carapace is that its primary benefit is that it allows for faster reactions and smoother control. Neither of these things is hugely important outside of combat situations and neither are things that the Mechanicus seems to value very much. So I'm not hugely surprised that Tech-priests don't seem to have something similar.

Also, what - in game terms - are the additional advantages of power armour? Space Marine Scouts don't wear power armour but are statistically almost identical (and my understanding was that the gap was due to inexperience) to their power armoured brethren. Obviously we know from the fluff that the Black Carapace allows for smoother control and faster reactions but I've also never seen any Mechanicus personnel suffer from those problems.

And of course there's the fact that the Tech-priests don't actually wear Power Armour, just a suit of armour providing equivalent protection, so whose to say how well they can interface with it.

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