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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-18-13, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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Like I said, I grew up with Doom and in that game this was a Ammo Clip


Here you can see the standard definition of a clip
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-18-13, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz View Post
In my world a clip is 5 to 10 rounds held together by a metal "clip" ah la the old M1 Garand or the 303 5 round clips.

Something that holds several rounds is a magazine. Mags are what go on you hot rod's wheels.

In terms of time scale I'd look less at straight out over ground speed and more at time taken to execute an attack.

A game of 40k is around about a platoon attack so I'd say the whole game is at least an hour of real time.
An hour seems like a long time to me especially since allot of the factions have super human reflexes. Realistically firefights and ambushes happen fact. They can be counted by seconds instead of minutes. So I'd say it depends on what's happening. A firefight could be in fact longer than a melee. Or shorter depending on what's being used.
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-18-13, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
An hour seems like a long time to me especially since allot of the factions have super human reflexes. Realistically firefights and ambushes happen fact. They can be counted by seconds instead of minutes. So I'd say it depends on what's happening. A firefight could be in fact longer than a melee. Or shorter depending on what's being used.
That hour includes a lot of looking, preparing, assessing and all that sort of stuff. You don't just wander out into the open. You sit there and observe for 5 to 10 seconds at least before any move and that all adds up.

Even the most genehanced soldiers can't hear a single enemy shot and immediately know exactly where to go and what to do when they get there.

Even advancing under fire isn't an all out foot race towards the enemy but rather "pepperpotting" or "movement in tactical bounds."
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-18-13, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MadCowCrazy View Post
Here you can see the standard definition of a clip

Just like I said then?
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-19-13, 05:06 AM
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I'm not sure what it says in the 6th edition rule book, but in the 5th edition, somewhere in the movement phase stuff, it says that the units aren't just moving straight to the point, they take multiple stops to look around and assess their surrounds, plus I imagine when a unit is in cover they are waiting for an opportunity to stick their heads out and fire.

So I don't think it's as smooth and fast as walking up say 10 meters and firing. But cautiously moving up, keeping low, hunker down into cover, communicating with who ever is in charge, make sure your weapon is ready, spot an enemy in those ruins over there, position special weapons, wait for a clear shot and then fire.

Another good example, while not quite the same as a tabletop game, is the DOW2 intro. The movement phase starts at about 30 seconds, and the whole turn ending around 2 minutes, and that's with just a few units.


Last edited by Insanity; 02-19-13 at 12:14 PM.
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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-19-13, 07:40 AM
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One of my buddies once gave me an overview of BFG, and one of his key points was that the ships in that game aren't actually to-scale. Given that space engagements are fought over ranges of tens, even hundreds of thousands of kilometers, the models on a standard board would actually be just a few millimeters long--and that's for point-blank engagements.

I've taken to visualizing 40K the same way. For example, a rapid fire weapon's range is 24" max. Seems awfully close, doesn't it? Speaking from military experience, a trained soldier should be able to consistently hit a man-sized target at 300-600m. In fact, an M16 rifle can engage point targets at up to 800m (though at this distance human eyesight has already faltered, for most people). Vehicles also seem almost unreasonably slow. Honestly, if 40k models were built to the correct scale, I'd hazard that they should actually be the same size as an Epic 40k model.

Time dilation may apply in the same way. For example, when my base was hit recently, the firefight lasted approximately 2 hours. And that was with just a handful of insurgents attacking. I heard an Afghan support gunner squeeze off an entire belt of machine gun ammunition without stopping; it took approximately 15 seconds. So to me, one shooting phase = one reload. Soldiers in my theater of operations are trained to make their combat load (9 magazines) last for extended lengths of time. Marines elsewhere in theater have been known to still have magazines remaining after a 10-hour 'firefight'. A 40k game can only last as long as the infantry's ammunition lasts. So, at absolute maximum, 10 hours.

I'll expand this to flyers as well. Air support from a nearby airfield took about 45 minutes to arrive. I'm lucky enough not to be getting into firefights often (I wasn't actively involved with this one, but sheltering with my unit 400m away), but from reading after action reports, this seems to be about the length of time it typically takes for air support to arrive. Therefore, if a flyer arrives on turn 2, 45 minutes of battle have already elapsed.

So, viewed through the lens of modern warfare, I would deduce that a typical 6-turn game would last 4 realtime hours. Coincidentally, that's about the time a 1850-pt game actually lasts! Whaddaya know?

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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-19-13, 08:59 AM
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Cha-ching !

Combat is NOT a quick thing lads.
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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-19-13, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insanity View Post
Another good example, while not quite the same as a tabletop game, is the DOW2 intro. The movement phase starts at about 30 seconds, ending around 2 minutes, and that's with just a few units.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTjyO_FncE4

the movement phase dosnt end at 2 mins!

0:30-0:45 movement
0:45-0:55 shooting/running
0:55-1:10 assault
skip movement
1:10-1:21 shooting/running
1:21-1:30 assault
1:30-1:33 movement
1:33-1:55 shooting / assault

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see my Empire army
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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-19-13, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maelstrom48 View Post
One of my buddies once gave me an overview of BFG, and one of his key points was that the ships in that game aren't actually to-scale. Given that space engagements are fought over ranges of tens, even hundreds of thousands of kilometers, the models on a standard board would actually be just a few millimeters long--and that's for point-blank engagements.

I've taken to visualizing 40K the same way. For example, a rapid fire weapon's range is 24" max. Seems awfully close, doesn't it? Speaking from military experience, a trained soldier should be able to consistently hit a man-sized target at 300-600m. In fact, an M16 rifle can engage point targets at up to 800m (though at this distance human eyesight has already faltered, for most people). Vehicles also seem almost unreasonably slow. Honestly, if 40k models were built to the correct scale, I'd hazard that they should actually be the same size as an Epic 40k model.

Time dilation may apply in the same way. For example, when my base was hit recently, the firefight lasted approximately 2 hours. And that was with just a handful of insurgents attacking. I heard an Afghan support gunner squeeze off an entire belt of machine gun ammunition without stopping; it took approximately 15 seconds. So to me, one shooting phase = one reload. Soldiers in my theater of operations are trained to make their combat load (9 magazines) last for extended lengths of time. Marines elsewhere in theater have been known to still have magazines remaining after a 10-hour 'firefight'. A 40k game can only last as long as the infantry's ammunition lasts. So, at absolute maximum, 10 hours.

I'll expand this to flyers as well. Air support from a nearby airfield took about 45 minutes to arrive. I'm lucky enough not to be getting into firefights often (I wasn't actively involved with this one, but sheltering with my unit 400m away), but from reading after action reports, this seems to be about the length of time it typically takes for air support to arrive. Therefore, if a flyer arrives on turn 2, 45 minutes of battle have already elapsed.

So, viewed through the lens of modern warfare, I would deduce that a typical 6-turn game would last 4 realtime hours. Coincidentally, that's about the time a 1850-pt game actually lasts! Whaddaya know?

Yeah that sounds about right.

I would like to add that I believe it would also depend on what races are fighting. I don't think a 2000 point fight between Orks and 'nids would last as long as a 2000 point fight between Imperial guard and Tau.
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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-19-13, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khrone forever View Post
the movement phase dosnt end at 2 mins
Sorry, I didn't mean the movement phase ends at 2 mins, I mean the whole turn. Edited the post to avoid further confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maelstrom48 View Post
Snip
I agree, excellent post from one of the guys overseas, with actual experience. To expand on what he said about scale, you could think of each model like the ones on Maps you see in early war movies (not 100% sure on the era, but early war seems right), when they are making plans of attack.

Last edited by Insanity; 02-19-13 at 12:20 PM.
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